Question for Engine Builders
 

To start with, I want you guys to know that I'm not looking for free advice on what parts to buy. :)
Most of you have probably commented on my post "First Dyno Complete" and I have learned a lot from those posts which brings me to this question.
I have my builder "dead to rights" on using incorrect clearances for the piston to wall and piston ring end gaps. Indisputable based on his build sheet for my engines and the information packets supplied by the piston and ring manufacturers for a "Marine Application".
If you had built these engines and were presented this information and then you were asked to make it right on your dime, would you? Keep in mind that I'm not attacking you, I am calmly laying out the facts and asking you to make it right.
I haven't presented this to my builder yet. I wanted to know ahead of time if this is going to be an uphill battle or not. I am pretty sure I would never see a dime back from him (voluntary or through the courts) so I'm thinking of different avenues. I would not have a problem paying for him to clearance the mains to the proper spec's. I would also pay to have the valve guides in the heads done however by a different shop.
Please try and keep the replies to the actual question rather than "If I were in your shoes I would do....." or I wouldn't make that mistake in the first place, or you need to find another builder. None of that is helpful to me at this point. $hit happens to us all no matter good we think we are.
The shop I used has been around for quite a while and I know he can do the work properly. Yes I realize that he should have looked at the spec sheet but what's done is done. On the bright side for repairing this is it's all undersized.
I am not making excuses for the shop. I am trying to salvage this $hit show I find myself in. Thanks for your comments.

I’ve read most of the posts but not all. I know my way around a LS real well. BBC’s not so much.

one question I have is did you sign off on this build? Did he say here are the plans, please sign off and I will build to these tolerances?
rebuilding a rebuild sucks. I doubt you’d be able to nor would you want them to touch it again regardless. Getting your money back would be unlikely, even less so if you signed off. However what you have going for you is a clear sign of issues in your dyno. I’d expect you to have some kind of startup but no usage guarantee, etc,,, get this in writing.

I would not put engines in my boat, nor take them to sea let alone have others (parents, kids, older onboard I was not 100% confident in (to the best of my knowledge at any given time, things happen). You don’t have that at the moment.

If it were me id compare paying someone reputable to rebuild or a combo swap and buy from a reputable builder (with references, insurance, a reasonable guarnatee) etc. if you explain you got burned most guys will deal real straight. The guys that don’t take the time to explain and talk you through it, run away from. But treat them with respect, not a good move to punish someone for someone else’s sins.

I'm worried you're going to find that the reputable builders that would hypothetically give you your money back wouldn't have made the mistake in the first place, whereas the builders that would make the mistake likely will fight you on your request.

Good luck man

I would vote for walk away from the problem and learn from the experience. Take your engines to a reputable marine engine builder who can get you on the water this Spring. If you're bent on the lack of justice you've been served on your boating upgrade just wait until you get lawyers involved:poopoo:

Take them to someone who knows what they are doing. You will be money ahead.

II would not put these engines back in the hands of the builder, move on. Many years ago I naively got myself into a situation like yours and learned why stock black or blue Mercruiser/Mercury power makes sense for many of us because we lack the skills to spec, build and maintain unique non-stock equipment.

What type of warranty or guarantee came along with the build?

Have you called KB and spoke to someone about their marine application specs? Use any info gained from them as ammo in your case.

Then I would just present him the build sheet and the KB piston install instructions. Express to him your and KB's concerns about the longevity of the engines and ask him what he would like to do about it? After all, he had the info at his disposal and chose to ignore the factory recommendations.

As for the heads, you purchased them and said they were already set up for marine application. In my mind, he was let off the hook on that.

I would give the man a chance to correct his mistake if you think he is capable to remedy the bottom end clearances. If you do not trust him and want $$ back, I feel you will be trying to get blood from the turnip you spoke about before. I was recently surprised to find there are still some good people that stand behind their word. Hopefully this man is one of them.

Good luck. Hope the outcome is in your favor.



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xlint89, thanks for your comment. I have a plan to meet with him next week. I did NOT tell him they were ready for marine use. To be honest, I didn't know or read (my fault I suppose) that there were different requirements. AFR didn't offer to make them "marine ready" other than upgrading the exhaust valves and hard anodizing. It may be a pain in the a$$ for AFR to perform different clearances on their heads. Seems like just another line item expense to me. Missed opportunity I suppose. Even though I hold him harmless on the heads. it would have been nice for him to check. Could have made a few extra $$$$.
He's a decent guy and has been around a while. He was easy to work with.... of course I was feeding him money at the time, but nevertheless I think we can work something out.
I'll see next week if he's going to be helpful or not.

Out of sheer curiosity, what would need to be done to these engines to "marinize" them. Can a different ring set or piston be used to make a greater clearance? Do the heads need reworked?

Sucks to be in your position, and spring is right around the corner.

Tango, From what I have learned, the jury is out on the hypereutectic pistons. I can see where the forged would be better but I'm not convinced that the hypereutectic ones I have wouldn't work just fine for my application. I think you hone the cylinders to meet the piston requirements. These rings are probably fine they would need a little more filing depending on how much the cylinders were honed. The heads will come off regardless. The valve guides need to be opened up.

I have never heard of any engine builder willing to give a customer cash back on a mistake. The engine builder will want you to let them fix the issues at best.

Just a casual observer, but from comments I've read and little bit off other thread.......give you my .02.

Politely presenting your evidence and allowing him a chance to comment is worth a shot because you got nothing to lose at this point. I would approach it as "I had read that marine applications require different clearances and so you went to the manufacturer got the specs and this is what you found vs what you got. Is there something I left out that may of steered you in the wrong direction.....". If he offers to fix say great, but ask what will be different this time? Look at him dead in the eyes and read him, if he is looking to the right and up he is lying and can't be trusted take your stuff somewhere else and let god do the rest.

Also, in this sport, you need a second boat, give a care if it's a 17-20ft bay boat or craig cat or whatever. This sport will chew up a season quicker than a pack of chewing gum.

I am going to play the part of your engine builder.
Me; So you Dyno'd the engines, they ran fine, had good oil pressure and made the power you were looking for?
You; that is correct
Me; So what is the problem?
You; I read on the internet that I need more clearance on the pistons and valve guides
Me; No problem, I can do that for $3K each
You; I want you to do it for free or give me $6K
Me; (laughing) GET OUT OF MY SHOP

At least that is how I see it going down. Now if a piston had seized or popped off the top ring land while warming up on the dyno that would be a different set of circumstances that he might stand behind.

The heads I don't see him doing anything with as you presented them to him as ready to run....now being a competent builder he should have suggested otherwise but didn't so I think you're out of luck on those.

The ring gap, bearing clearance, and piston clearance are things that he chose not to at least follow the manufacturer's instructions on. My opinion you do have a case there however I don't see him redoing it for free..and even if he did, would you trust that he did it correctly to what you asked of him or did he just print you a new piece of paper with the numbers on it that you wanted to see? Either way to me I would probably go elsewhere but I have been burned a couple times so it's really a crapshoot I'd say unfortunately

Thanks snapmorgan for your comments. I'm pretty sure you know that my complaint is not that I met my power requirements like you appear to indicate is the problem. Maybe it was unclear, but these engines are exactly what I was looking for in hp and torque.
I did learn all sorts of info from this site pertaining to clearance's, valve springs and guides, etc. and will be meeting my builder tonight to go over everything.
The piston to wall clearance is on the sheet provided by the piston manufacturer for a marine installation. My builder spec'd and supplied these pistons. My thought is that the piston manufacturer has some idea of how the parts they produce will react in different circumstances. My builder didn't follow that suggestion (in fact they are so tight that the installed clearance is not even listed on their sheet) and I'd like to know why especially if it may strand me in the middle of the lake. Same for the ring end gaps.
Snapmorgan, I don't know if you're an engine builder or not but I will assume that you are. When you install pistons, do you just install them to your spec's and if it fails out on the water the answer is "GET OUT OF MY SHOP?" Are you offended with any customer that approaches you and starts the conversation out with: "The guys on the internet said..."? I know my builder is and I think he should be.
Also my understanding is that although they did survive a few "momentary pulls" on the dyno doesn't mean that they will stay together running at WOT across the water for an extended period of time.
I won't ask for something in writing but I will ask for "assurance" that the builds will survive under normal conditions. I absolutely don't want to have any problems and for an example of mistreatment, I wouldn't start them Saturday morning and 15 seconds later go WOT down the river.
Now that I have already "accused him" of this error, I'm hoping that if I actually bring something up to him that he does see as problematic, he would be man enough to own it now and help me to get it properly sorted out before installation. I'm pretty sure especially after snapmorgans input that regardless of the failure (if one even happens) it will be 100% my fault and 100% my problem.
I do appreciate all of the comments whether helpful or not.
Thanks again.

I think snapmorgan is just saying that’s how he sees the conversation going, not that he would react that way.
Nothing about these builds is correct. It’s time to step back, take them to someone that knows what they are doing and have them go through everything and fix them.
Will your pistons and cranks live at that power level? Probably, but I sure like to build a marine engine a lot more towards overkill.
Mercury and their penny counters built 365 hp engines with forged rotating assemblies. If they thought cast would be just fine they would have used it.

More accurately, Mercury and their penny counters bought engines from GM that happened to have forged rotating assemblies in them. Need look no further than the 496 to show that Merc wasn't dead set on forged for black motor purposes.

Maybe Merc had no choice with the 496 ? :wink :)

Well, they have the resources to have engineered their own forged parts if they wanted to. There just wasn't a good reason (i.e. profit) to do it at stock power levels I guess.

If they did a blue motor based 496, they would have.

All my opinion of course.

The early 496 cranks were forged. The cast cranks could hold quite a bit of hp. I can't remember without searching. The cast crank wasn't the weak link in the engine. The pistons were.

I am not sure you have a leg to stand on.

Your Engine Builder whether right or wrong built it his way for a reason. You are going back to him and telling him how to do his job. You chose this builder for a reason then are questioning their method.

You want it your way based on the opinions of some guys on the internet. Not to say any of it is wrong. I think you are asking a lot. You want to pay him to do it your way…he might do that. I say take it to someone that knows what they are doing and fix it before it’s broken.

I haven’t kept up on the details past the initial dyno post but I don’t think this approach will get you anywhere

Just caught up on that thread. Sorry you are going thru this 🤦🏼‍♂️

I am not a professional marine engine builder, but I have built several. I would have used the manufactures specs for clearances and wouldn't have a problem with fixing them had I not. I know that some engine builders have big egos and think they know more than the people that are building the components. That was just how I heard the conversation going in my head. I truly hope that you get it resolved. If the clearances that you posted are indeed accurate, I see engine failure in your near future, but I could be totally wrong and they might run 500hrs without removing a valve cover. I am the last person that would say GET OUT OF MY SHOP, I probably go too far out of my way to help a fellow boater in need. I was just playing devil's advocate

Your approach means a lot......I say this as someone who works in healthcare that comes across patients anc family members with " google medical degrees" on a frequent basis.

I woukd not hit him with the my way or the highway approach. I'd start with, Hey, can I ask you a few questions, I he read from a few sources that motors used in my application need enhanced clearances because of the way they are run, whats your thought on that??? and simply discuss it with him.

If he dismisses your concerns with a decent rational, ask him if he will stand behind his work if engine failure occurs because of your concerns. Then have him put it in writing.

This way you you are not accusing him f being an idiot or wrong doing, , you are asking him for his professional opinion and knowledge. if he is confident he will back his work, if he sees your validity in your concerns he will rework them.

phragle, Thanks for your comments.
I did have the meeting with him and it went well. I also apologized to him for "blindsiding" him with the internet info. Nobody likes when that happens, ironically even people on the internet don't like it. Anyway, he and I get along fine.
I did go over everything I heard from this site and asked if he was good with them as is and he is.
I also gave him the "out or ability" to 2nd guess the clearance on the heads without admitting he did something wrong because I supplied the heads. I told him I would pay for him to do it now. He said he was still good. AFR also said their heads were good. Opinions vary and we will see what happens this spring.
I will be running them easy for a while before a WOT run. That was suggested by this site and I would think regardless of who built them, It just makes sense to "break a new engine in" before you run it hard.
I did not ask for a "warranty in writing". I do have the man's word on this so IF something happens and it is something that he did, he would stand behind them. I can't change who I am. I take a man at his word until proven differently.
My understanding from this site is NO MARINE ENGINE BUILDER would warranty their work in writing. So I would have no guarantee of success with their builds either however some tend to guarantee my failure. Again, we will see and I'm not too proud to post that I was wrong and this site was correct if the worst should happen.
Now I find myself in a dilemma that I didn't see coming. I didn't take the (free) advice from this site and now there was someone who said that I should no longer receive any help from this site. I don't remember who or which post (apparently I'm a "Post Whore" too) said it but I did see it. I see that you have been here for quite some time so maybe you have nothing to worry about but my advice is just be careful who you back or side with. Consensus is everything. I don't mean that everyone on this site has an attitude. Far from it. Even the guys that I can tell don't like me were still giving advice up to the point that I finally said I was going with my builder.
On a positive note I made several posts this time before a problem came up. I was on here quite a while ago and made one post, poorly worded and or laid out and got hammered a little. It wasn't terrible but I felt it was going to be an uphill battle from there so I stayed away. (That "post" was actually brought up during this whole new fiasco. Like I said, uphill battle.) Finally came back and again now feel that it's going to be an uphill battle again however this time I'm not leaving unless I get banned for something.
The internet does not bring out the best in people including me. Face to face, people are no where near as "brave", rude etc. as they are on the internet and what passes for "humor" seems to always be at someone else's expense.
I'm getting very old and still living a very blessed life. Hoping for a great a 2023 boating season.
Thanks again for your comment.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. When I had a business that held allot of receivables from small building/remodeling contractors, inevitably I would end up with a bunch of them owing me money, sometimes substantial amounts (at least for me). I always found it better to become buddies and figure out ways that the challenge could be overcome, rather than to dig my heels in. The suppliers that dug in hard were the ones getting no money, while many times I would come out whole. You did a great job tempering back a bit and worked with him on a resolution.

PQ, don’t sweat the haters man. Get out on the lake and forget it all.