When you say sub 100hr 300's for 40K are you talking the new V8's? Is that with controls?

I agree those to me seem the best bang for the buck when reliability is the goal. Hang a pair on a 30 spectra cat and that would be a cheap fun ride.

Suzuki 300s like I’m running now. I’ve noticed Merc 300 V8 prices coming down recently, but a full swap with new controls would be pricier obviously.

https://www.thehulltruth.com/parts-f...0-25-pair.html

https://www.thehulltruth.com/parts-f...is-2014-a.html

The fatcat DW28 + 300Rs would have been the ticket but they must have sold the mold.

How many new sport boat Vees and cats are built with triple 300s though? When the 450Rs came out, the "old" Verado 400s in stock dropped to $40k new. Now that was great bang for your buck on a solid proven engine platform.

Just saw a statement 35 powered this way. On a 350-400k boat the savings would be not insignificant. The SC motors are thirsty too.

They were a great deal there at the end. Boat mechanics like the serviceability and durability of the L6.

If you watch THT you’ll see guys flipping low hours L6 400s for the next couple years. Some guys just automatically repower every 2-3 years.

Personally if I was going to do that I would repower with these.

https://marineenginedepot.com/new-62...-airpac-620-hp

ICDEDPPL--- For President, Sleepy wouldn't have a chance.....

While that may be true, for the most part they want to be part of the weenie-rub group. Never been a fan of the CC craze. They don't have anything to offer except a loud stereo and can haul a bunch of people and not worth a damn to cove out and swim.

Seems old school going back to egg beaters no matter what the hp. Especially since they've eclipsed the cost of a decent hp I/O motors. Cost for maintenance these will not be any cheaper in the long run.

To your point on efficency...in an apples to apples comparison of a twin engine boat, is 500 hp out of a 726 lb 500R not more efficient than 520 hp out of a 1218 lb 520 sterndrive?

Also, in regards to maintenance, I can assure you that I could change the oil, change the spark plugs and pencil coils, and even swap 4 starters faster on a quad Verado boat than you could do a tune-up on a side by side sterndrive boat. And I could do it from a step ladder.

I don't have a good rational argument here as for the true fuel economy numbers, but I will tell you that a friend I run with has a 35 statement CC with 400s (non-R) on it and his fuel burn on those at WOT matches my more powerful big blocks. That's just reading GPH recorded off the dang Mercury software so not sure if its accurate, or even a viable argument. Our boats weigh similar, but his hull is wider and less efficient for sure. Its a real non-valid comparison. Still....we are both about 86 GPH at WOT.....and that's 400s. vs modern 540s. His boat does carry a lot more fuel, so on water weight is probably off by 1000 lb also

Something also to mention. 86mph and me getting it as hard as I can....86 GPH. Pull the sticks back just a tickle and run 80-81 and it drops 20 GPH fuel burn.

Should be pretty accurate. The PCM knows how much fuel it is feeding the engine.

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I know most NA OBs are doing a lean burn at part throttle based on a wideband o2 feedback.

I doubt the 520 does this.

Supercharged Merc OBs are obviously also thirstier than NA OBs.

I will say that weight difference is big. My fuel economy drops a lot with a load of people and fuel.

The thing going unmentioned is that the OBs allow for a significantly longer warranty period.

Between my MTI/450 boat and my DCB/450 boat, and now my 300V8 Airship RIB, I have about 375 hrs with no real issue. One O2 sensor on the MTI(fixed in 20 mins) and one belt shred on the DCB, fixed in 30 mins.

Also, if you lose a prop shaft on an OB (with a merc prop) they replace the prop as well. And I have two sets of cleavers always within grabbing distance. Just in case.

And two 450/500r motors on a most hulls will easily outrun a 520/540 due efficiency or props and higher rpm.

450's will beat up the 520's in any performance cat... the 500's will undoubtably do the same. The only downfall to the 450's is the prop-shaft issues, now the major issue with the 500's is insurance. Wozencraft told me that you can get insurance on a V bottom with 500's but nobody is writing cats with them. They are hoping this winter or early spring... that sounds expensive. I'm building a new boat and decided on 450's because of this issue, luckily I found a new set with full warranties for less than most used ones with high hrs and would have to be repainted to match your boat. I might not be the coolest kid on the block but I can always re-power in a couple of years.

Does anyone know yet if the 500's lowers can be put on the 450's?

It would be a bummer if it didn't.

Just guessing: since the key problem has been broken prop shafts, there should not be a reason to spend money redesigning the mounting pattern to the mid section or the drive shaft.

A new lower that doesn't fit would be the kind of thing that OMC would have done.

Any idea of what share of 450Rs use FloTorq props? (What props are all those center consoles running in the first place?) Are there FloTorq hubs for the 500R prop shaft, or is the diameter too large?

I believe the down shaft is larger as well as the prop shaft. So not likely to fit.

Hey Greg...Correct. I was told shaft and many parts are larger in diameter and beefed up. When are you putting a pair on the DCB ;)

Bummer.

Good question, I remember the press release saying the midsection was new. So maybe not.

I know 2 guys that run twin 450 R's, ,they are very unhappy with the fuel consumption,,they both said they are much worse on fuel than they were told before the sales guy sold them on it.

Im shocked a sales person would stoop so low.......:D

Two guys you know bought new boats and motors and didnt do research to find out what was important to them? Fuel economy... Isnt that there own fault?

Having experience in many many types of boats and I/O motors, having experience in OB motors as well. I know many here are die hard I/O guys, but the reality is, the 450's sip fuel compared to I/O's in that power range. they run on very low maintenance compared to I/O's. Are they perfect, nope, but show me a mechanical item that is. I know many of you hate to hear this but They are a step forward in technology.
Show me a High 37-39 cat with a I/O that runs around at 75 mph doing 2mpg, show me a I/O that can run for hours and hours at a time going 100+ mph at 1.8 mpg. Show me a I/O that can get away with over 110 hrs and need nothing but the 100 hr oil changes and belt change service.

I love my I/O power. The qc4v power and reliability is awesome. The O/B wont have that same punch ever but dang they OB are pretty darn reliable and fuel efficient for me.

So when does someone drop a OB power head in the bilge and make a modern I/O?

LOL.

It would be way too expensive. QC4V expensive.

The I/O model requires cheap gas and cheap, antiquated [GM] engines.

BRP/Rotax sort of attempted just that. They snapped the neck of an OB and came up with this oddball.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...26810594d5.png

When I get the new one next April. :D

I kind of like this if they step up to 300hp, but you’re putting more faith in that rubber (gasket) than banging a skid row crack wh0re

…….or clamp an I/O on the transom and get an outboard that sounds like a big block…..:bong:

:lolhit:

The Sport Exhaust mode on the Verado V8's and V10's actually sound pretty good.

You prejudice fuks are killin me!

I say that with the utmost of love.

I love my 2 stroke OBs but still stop in my tracks when I hear a hi zoot IO fire off.

I have educated many, many boating friends on the difference between a loud IO and a loud IO that was making power.

Two totally different things.

A 454 with “Captains Call”?
😝🤓😎

Know which one there are more of 😝

I would present that you haters have not had a ride in a proper, vanilla OB.

Ever been a 100+ in a 17’ hull that weighed 543 lbs?
Powered by a 186 in motor?

Ever driven a boat that you knew that one more tap of the “up” button would send you for a swim, or kill you?

It has been a long long, long long time since I was passed by an IO.

Oh wait….., no, the above is correct.
Wasnt this yr, decade or the last one.

Cant find my favorite shot of a buddy in his vanilla powered 19’ STV side by side w/a blown “BIG BLOCK” vee drive flat bottom At WFO!

I would also state for the record, that the drivers of the boats in these shots would debate you on their rigs being soulless.

All kidding aside, they are here to stay so accept them or sit back and watch.


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In all seriousness, the new Merc 4 stroke OBs have changed the game for OB powered boats and especially the mid size and up Offshore market.

Yes the market has shifted to CC’s but if you write the check I’m sure they’ll build a deck for you.

Before these new OBs, I always saw 30’ as about the limit for twin,2 stroke OBs.

A couple of exceptions were 33’ Powerplay or similar but understood I had to accept 65 as a WFO.

Now you could put a pair of 450R’s on one and probably run high 80’s?

Look at what the new, mid 30’s, twin OB cats are running!
115 is now slow!

Huge positives for OBs that you IO guys don’t have is being able to tilt the entire motor out of the water when at rest.
Especially when in salt or left at dock.

Another, and IMO, bigger feature is Jack plates.

I look at some of the amazing builds you guys have done and can’t even imagine the amount of sleep I’d lose studying a new X dimension!

I can raise/lower my motors 5”+ w/the push of a button!

Ive been in channels, harbors, beaches that there’s no way I could do in an identical IO powered boat.

And underway, you TOTALLY change the dynamics of the boat!

W/my tiny (25’) boat in Lake Erie, it only works w/the plates down so I can slow my planing speed to handle the waves.

When it calms, you raise the motors, w/o touching anything else, and watch the speed/RPM increase!
Even when just optimizing your cruising speed.

Add to that the drastic improvement to docking abilities w/the motors down!
W/the motors up, as in a high X dimension, or my OBs, w/no plates but set to kill, and the wind blows…., my boat goes bow down wind, w/the wind!

And it sucks.
Plates down, it docks like a fish boat.

Lastly, the storage you p/u where the IO motors used to be.

We weekend on our boat and we carry:

2 folding bikes

an inflatable 8’ dinghy

2 deck chairs and table

2 anchors

4 life jackets

a grill

tool box

2 coolers

etc, etc

And we don’t even use all the storage space!

Of course if your boat is day rocket then most of this doesn’t matter.

I love the sound of my 2 strokes at full song but a big block at full tilt, is a special kind of music as well.

I also know motors well enough to understand/appreciate what you guys have to do to get/keep them there!

Well said Gary...,Had both ...great things about either...At least now a days outboards are getting the respect they deserve..

Twin OB Sonic, you made some good points. I don't think anyone's knocking outboards themselves and both OBs/IOs have their advantages. I was just curious at what price point are new OBs still worth it over new IOs.
Honestly you'll probably see me in 10yrs with a 24-26ft tritoon with twin 200 OBs and a Allison Grandsport or Quartershot T4 with a 4-stoke sitting next to it in my garage.
Regardless, you'll never see me with a 2-smoke anything. Parts and knowledgeable mechanics for them are starting to get real slim around here.

Interesting consider the 2 stroke OBs have no valve train, camshafts, oil pumps etc.

50% less parts than a car motor and they can’t figure them out?

Mostly it’s two things that kill them.

Poor tuning and carbon build up on the rings.

W/2 strokes firing every crank rotation Vs every other on a 4 stroke, the combustion chambers don’t have the time to cool between combustion cycles like a 4 stroke/cycle.

So if you mod your motor and are off on your tuning…., by……, an itty bitty, your done.

Ask me how I know 😉

99% of the failures though, are due to oil coking of the rings.

Causes the rings to “stick”, compressed in the ring lands of the piston (‘s) which then allows flame propagation from the combustion chambers to blow by them, burning the oil film off the cylinders, allowing metal to metal contact between piston ring and cylinder (sleeve), raising combustion temperature, motor goes into detonation and BOOM!

On the other hand, the OB dealers of their day didn’t necessarily do a good job on their side either.

Did you know that OMC offered power steering on their OB’s in the mid ‘80’s?

They got terrible press in the day but I sold them, drove many at 100 MPH and loved them!

Remember the fuel line, squeeze bulb primers for the OBs that everyone hated?

Had to move people off the rear seat so you could squeeze the bulb under the seat.

Did you know they offered an electric primer upgrade where you could hit a button at the dash instead?

I didn’t either until I built my own for my last several projects including my current one.

They of course have been oil injected for yrs but did you know they offer remote fill ports and larger oil tanks?

I put both in mine.

So no spilling oil while filling the tank under the back seat cushion.

Oil fills are on side deck like fuel fills.

My oil tanks are 3 gls each and I run 4 - 5 tanks (92 gls per) of fuel before refilling.
About the time your changing your oil anyhow.

My motors are even carbureted and not EFI.

W/good oil, they are smoke free.

Funny too, when the new 4 strokes came out I thought I’d want a pair.
Opposite happened.

I saw they’re price and realized how much I like my old junk!

There's some diehard 2-stroke guys around here but I've heard a few talk about issues getting powerheads or replacement engines that had let go.
The only guy around me I'd trust to work on one or dial it in is Dennis Berry but last time I stopped by his house to chat, he was booked up for a long time and he's not getting around as good these days unfortunately (back surgeries).
No worries on making me a believer in 2-strokes... I first met Brad Rowland a long time ago at one of our local lakes when he had his first toon with twins long before he got famous or put triples on it 😉 The other weekend my son asked who had the baddest boat on the lake, I pointed over at Brad in Tooned In Too, and my son was shocked when I told him how fast it'd run 😂

I’m sure many of you have seen this, it still makes me smile.
(Apologies if it was posted on here, I can’t recall where I saw it first)


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Bla, hah, hah!

Love it and, it works for me.

When I do stupid **** around the house and my wife shakes her head I always tell her, “as Popeye always told Olive Oil, I is what I is”!

Funny too, just had new graphics done for my Convincor project and changed its name from “Cocky” to “The Science Project” and the wife said Cocky was a better fit 😝

On price difference from IO to OB, OBs have always been more expensive, for off the shelf stuff.
Lots of reasons why.

I sold boats a dealership in ‘1989 and one of our boat lines was Checkmate and we were also an Evinrude dealer.

We had two 25’ Convincor IOs, one w/a 460 Ford and OMC and one w/a 454 Mag (I think 365 HP at the time) and a Bravo.

The Bravo boat was right at $45K and the OMC boat was $1500-ish less.

Me being the OB guy, I wanted a new Convincors w/twin OB’s, BAD!

I remember doing the math over and over and over, and even at dealer cost I was into the low $60K’!

And at that point in my life, wasn’t going to happen.

I remember sitting in that Bravo boat, trying to justify that extra $20K and never could.

Really was a nice package w/that power.

Interesting stuff…..


I think I still I have that dealer price list somewhere.

Was a fun job w/great benefits while it lasted!

Was owned/run by two brothers.
One that tried to make it a successful business and one that like to play!

The bad brother and I used to get in trouble all the time for taking “Demos” to the local pond, 2 mls away!