There are some people for whom the budget option is the right option. No question about that.

lol, the liberal looking down on the little people from his Ivory tower.:rolleyes:
You mean you need a big budget to keep the Skater running meanwhile us poor 'budget' folks have no issues but it`s the cheaply made boat because you saw "waves" in the sponsons. Liberal Logic.

You`ve never mentined what boat you have....

This is why "good builders" use an impregnator. You can set exact amount of resin you want to have in the cloth/material being used in various stages of the layup. As I stated above, it pays to visit multiple builders and see what materials and techniques they use. I have enjoyed watching my new project transform from rolls of carbon and totes of epoxy to the boat of my dreams. I try to check on it every 10 or 12 days.

Joe

Hey Brad,

For sure excess resin is a problem as all of the strength is in the fibers. That’s one of the main advantages of bagging/infusion. It sucks out the excess resin whilst using the mass of the atmosphere to help ensure full wet-out. The resulting fiber/resin ratio is much higher so you get a similar strength without having to haul around the mass of all that excess resin. I say similar as excess resin between the inner and outer fibers adds to the section modulus -so the thicker laminate (with a bit of extra resin) will be stiffer. However, if seeking stiffness without a weight penalty, coring is a much better way to go. I am referring to high performance laminates here. If not that weight sensitive then a solid vinylester laminate is excellent. The Norwegians have been doing this for years below the water line with generally good results. Regarding aramid – if you thought carbon was hard to wet-out have a go at aramid. You also need to be careful in your laminate design as aramid has very little compressive strength. Peter Hledin is a master of knowing how to work aramid into a laminate schedule – just wish he would swap out that damn balsa for Corecell….
ND1

well. It’s not 1/2” 😂 and gee, idk. Maybe cause a cat needs to fly on the pocket or air and can’t be 14,000 lbs just to name a few reasons lol

sounds like an OL. They are the only ones I know of using an impregnator. Awesome process. What are you building ?

Off topic:

And why don't good builders use vacuum infusion for larger pieces and autoclave for smaller pieces?

He would switch to foam if he could get the resin to stick as well to it as it does to Baltek. It's not like salesmen for foam cores don't have his phone number...

I meant that if you prioritize a big cockpit, an attractive price and a flushable toilet, you will be happier in a Nor-Tech.
If you prioritize speed, lines and lay-up, you will be happier in a Skater.

I would not call it cheaply made. But it is made to a lower target price. Among other things, that means that you use a less expensive resin. You have less shrinkage and more time and control with epoxy than with vinyl ester. Hence the wavy sponsons. Same thing with polyester boats.

Nor-Tech's pitch was value for money. You will find posts from their sales guy doing that pitch here on OSO from back in the days when they build cats.

Nothing to be ashamed of, or try to explain away with balsaphobia. :D

28 Skater. Not very expensive to run. Tanks have been replaced by stainless steel tanks. A proper tank job is on the to do list. The layup is a work of art. Not encountered any wet balsa.

Markus,

Divinycell is an excellent option. The reason resin doesn't "stick" to a foam core...? In most cases, it does. It's the foam just below the resin bond that fails. I'd be willing bet that, if you were to examine a lamination failure where it appears the bond failed, you'd find a healthy layer of the foam still firmly attached to the laminate layer, where the resin has wicked into it. Many times, impact will cause crush failure of the foam in this intermediate layer, causing a delamination. We've seen this a lot in the model boating world, when less resilient foams are used. I'd have to think these forces would be considerably worse in our bigger boats. Divinycell is about the only one I can recall that doesn't do this. I have to think it's the cost that prevents any boat builder from using it for any foam core application.

Thanks. Brad.

Question,

On most Skaters I have seen they have what I would call "print through". You can literally see the fiber lines. Is this because they are using just enough resin or what is that from?

Careful big daddy some of us have feelings!

Very thin gel coat.
Peter builds raceboats. That's all he cares about. The fact that people put fancy paint jobs and 8 person cockpits in them means very little to him. Hes all about performance. Period. Skater's are extremely strong, yet quite fragile. The strakes are razor sharp, but chip easily. They have a TON of end grain balsa, and very little glass. Light, strong, STIFF, but fragile. Sort of like a Mclaren. We know this from being a Skater dealer for 20+ years and rigging every single one we sold. Everything from 21s to 170mph 32s to quite a few championship winning race boats. They were all built the same.
MTI, Nor Tech, etc etc build amazing boats but they are 100% more concerned about fit and finish, gel work, etc. They build pleasure boats. Corvettes or an AMG Benz. The "better" boat is the one that fits your needs the best. They're all great in their own ways.

2004 39 MTI Vacuum bagged core 8500 lbs $592,000
2004 36 Nortech solid core bottom fiberglass/Kevlar 9200 lbs $616,000
Different methods of building both have their pros and cons
Nortech was never a value-based builder, they cared more about quality, strength and fit and finish than speed.
Cigarette still does it old school as well and hand rolls everything.
IMO two of the top fit and finish companies in the business.

42' Wright/Performance. Several builders use impregnators (only accurate way to keep weight & strength truly consistent).

Joe

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...6207c9d34a.jpg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...066390eaf1.jpg
Its a thin outer skin that allows the print thru. Skaters are Epoxy and are painted not gel coated. I had my first skater (by luck) at 12 years old I got Pete's personal 18 footer because my dad took it on trade. I have had several Skaters since then and have one now. I have also watched them being built for 45 years now. I love Pete, love skaters, hate balsa core and what it takes to replace and or repair. These pictures crack me up when I look at them. Pete and my son are both F1 junkies so they were inside our condo watching the cars as the boats were running outside. Then my buddy has a Doug Wright shirt on sitting next to Pete. Pete says "hey you have some "**** on your shirt", Paul (who has also owned Skaters) says is it balsa dust? LOL...good times and the guy is a legend for sure.

Joe

Awesome pics and story!
Its interesting paint/gel with his boats. I think it depended on the era. Our old dealer packets have a ton of really cool info. Miss those days. For clarification, i certainly did not mean they had gel graphics like a Cali boat. Just the white base. Then again, we have plenty of progress pics from the factory back in the day of boats in raw fiberglass if you will. No gel there.
"Standard High Gloss White GelCoat"
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...d8ad064e83.jpg

“I love Pete, love skaters, hate balsa core and what it takes to replace and or repair. These pictures crack me up when I look at them. Pete and my son are both F1 junkies so they were inside our condo watching the cars as the boats were running outside. Then my buddy has a Doug Wright shirt on sitting next to Pete. Pete says "hey you have some "**** on your shirt", Paul (who has also owned Skaters) says is it balsa dust? LOL...good times and the guy is a legend for sure.

Joe “



Ha - That’s priceless.

The reality is whilst many of balsa’s ASTM properties look unbeatable, it’s shear elongation (shear is the critical force for core) is terrible. In an earlier post, it was mentioned that the failure mode of foam core is within the core itself. However, all cores are not equal and I suspect they were using a cross-linked foam which cannot handle dynamic loading. For running surfaces, a linear foam such as Airex R63 or a higher spec Sans foam (Corecell) will endure elastic deformation and in the process absorb the energy which would otherwise fracture balsa. Save for the two Shaun’s Doug Wright (which either hit the bottom or was built too light -depending on who you speak with), those cats have taken the same or more abuse that the equivalent Skater without any of the rotting balsa issues. MTI used to build in Balsa but I believe they have moved on as well. Of course, these advanced foam cores cost a lot more than balsa but look at the price of a new Skater? A fast light race boat doesn’t have to turn to dust….

ND1

Balsa is good until its not. I have had a bunch of Skaters over the years.
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.off...a8f938faf5.jpg
This a running surface that had been modified for extra support (the foam pyramid you see was added fore to aft for additional support). I remember doing the mallet knock and it didn't sound right. This is out of one of the 24s.

Nortech great boat but they all don't pop out of mold perfect, so things happen ?For speed Skater or MTI good luck! PS don't bad mouth Nor Tech in SW Florida they are brain washed:eek::drink::ernaehrung004::food-smiley-007:

I thing Nortech builds an incredible product. The range of consumer they go after is amazing! Just look at what they're willing to build, almost anything. What they build also has a cool factor of 10! I went on a work trip last Summer and did a snorkeling trip on a large sail catamaran. A beautiful 30 something checked us in at the boarding of the boat and took our shoes. I went up to the Captain station to see who was going to Captain this impressive vessel upon boarding the boat. It was the the woman who checked us in. I asked if she was the Captain. She responded with yes I am. I asked where in the world she learned how to drive of a boat of this size. She told me she was from Norway and that's what they know. I fell in love immediately, go Nortech!

I had a 2010 40 Roadster - the tunnel delaminated from the transom about 3 feet forward. The foam core turned to powder. Called Nortech - they denied ever having that problem. Had an infusion repair done by a pro. When i went to sell the boat 2 people contacted me and said they had the same issue with their Nortech. The factory lied period. The only Cats i would consider are from builders doing would free infusion layups - like MTI, Doug Wright, DCB, ect.

The tunnel was 3 layers of glass 2 layers of foam core. Not solid glass.

I’ve seen quite a few MTI cats delaminate in the tunnel. Seen them come apart beneath cockpit area and at the transom. Pretty much every manufacturer has had boats delaminate.

We have some really nice stuff being built with high tech composite materials at this point but it sure is pricy. We have been using some refrigerated prepreg carbon on my project (cool stuff)-literally.

Joe

Maybe they used PU foam instead of PVC?
PVC is difficult to turn into powder.
PU is harder, but crumbles and delaminates faster than PVC.