Cigarette AMG Electric Drive
 

Happy New Year Everbody,

I have a question: Does anybody know what happend to the Cigarette AMG electric Drive from 2013?

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Markus

It was at the Mercedes Stutgart museum - can't say for now as I haven't been in a few.

Ah good to know, maybe a reason to visit the museum. Thank you. I wonder if the boat have ever been in the water.

I saved this pic from a Dusseldorf Boat Show article a few years back. Cant seem to find it again, now.

Doesn't look like it was actually rigged with the TDIs but they did for sure remove the electric stuff.

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Thank you, I thought maybe it is still existing somewhere with the electric parts. I guess it was only a study which was just for showing an not for driving. Actually the numbers with power, torque and battery capacity sound good in 2013. Even today!

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Just a thought, Restauration of my 1988 twin 502 with two electric motors. Any comments?

YOU SHOULD BE BANNED FROM OSO MAKING STATEMENTS LIKE THAT! Cool project.

Please don't do it.lol

Hi there,

I still have my 38 foot boat with two GM 502 here in Germany. After starting rebuilding the boat last year I found out that the V8’s need to be overhauled as well. For some years I was building and developing electric motor bikes so I was thinking to convert my boat to electric. The thought is to build two electric motors in a waterproof housing and connect the motor direct with a shaft to the surface propeller. The “drives” would then be connected to the stern like Arneson Surface drives. In the drawing there would be a 500R outboard just as size comparison. The boat should have in the end just two electric drives and no more fuel engines.

Here where some simulated numbers what one drive could achieve:

Propshaft 4000 rpm

Propshaft Torque 1000 Nm or 737 ft lbf

Power: 569 hp

Weight one drive app. 100 kg or 220 lb

More over the 800V Li/ion Battery should have a capacity of 300 kWh and it would weight about 1500 kg or 3300 lb.

Just to be clear I grow up with V8s and still be a fan, but after I looked up the prices for two new Mercruisers with drives and app. 550 hp I thought if doing something new.

What do you think?

Markus

With 300 kWh, you have a similar range as with 100 liters of gasoline, which is too little for a boat of this size to leave a decent bay.

Cuckoo cuckoo cuckoo !!!

I rebuild the 502's,300Kwh batteries,you plan on building your own power plant to charge them at any decent rate.use the boat for 2-3hrs,,charge for week,

I have replaced many lenco electric trim tab actuators over the years from the electric motor failing. I personally dont think its a good idea to have an electric motor submerged under water. Heat is a huge killer of electric motors, and if you put one in a waterproof box, where does the heat go? Sure the water will cool the box, but how cold is the water?

Pretty sweet concept! As others have pointed out there will definitely be some large limitations of the design as well. First while the 300 kWh battery is huge you would be limited to maybe 45 minutes of runtime at cruising speeds (40-50 mph). Also while your estimate of 1500 kg for a 300 kWh pack is possible you would have to be using the highest energy density cylindrical cells or pouch cells currently available. Would you be looking to build the battery yourself or purchase an off the shelf variant?
I currently hold the record for the world’s fastest electric boat at 114.20 mph. https://www.princetonelectricspeedboating.com
I’d be happy to take a deep look into the project with you, if you’d like.

-Andrew

Hi Plavutka, compared to the energy you have in a 300 kWh Battery it is even worse - it's only 33 liters of fuel or 8,72 Gallons.

300 kWh is about 400 hp, and an average engine needs around 100–120 liters of fuel per hour for that.
But 300 KWh in real it is for les than 40 minutes with power of 300 KW.

Hi Andrew,

thank you for your answer. How many horsepower had the princeton electric speed boat?

The battery will be made by myself I guess, maybe 27200 Sony US VTC 6 cells, as I have written before I have made some electric motor bikes. One motorbike battery had 600 cells inside and had a capacity of 6.5 kWh and a weight of 32 kg so around 44 of these packs should fit in the boat. This bike was able to produce 50 horsepower and you could go at least 1 hour on the track. Bye the way this picture was made 2015 long time before Stark Vark.
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Hi Ryan,

the cooling will be done by splashing water at the stern. I would connect a flexible hose between motor and old engine room, big enough to put in the 3 phase cables and make it breath when the motor gets hot and cold. The motor will have an PTC temperatur sensor so the controller can reduce power when it is hot. The shaft sealing will be done with two shaft sealings similar a mercruiser drive shaft. Maybe you know the material what Mercury uses for the shafts?

If you have money and time to throw at a project like that, go for it. But I think the performance is going to be extremely underwhelming. Its not like a dirtbike on the track when your are constantly varying the throttle between 0-100%. There is no opportunity for regeneration. Those motors will be under mid to high load basically the whole time and its going to absolutely suck that battery dry. Its also not like an electric car where you get on the highway and cruise and the power requirements are minimal, a tesla at 70mph only needs like 30hp to maintain that speed on the flat and straight. Every single MPH on that Cigarette is more constant power. The idea is much better suited to a trawler application where to weight wont matter and the loads are much more reasonable.

You can’t compare a motocross engine or a car engine to a speedboat!

With a motorcycle, you only need 55 kW during acceleration, and the average power consumption is 5–10 times lower.
With a speedboat, you need constant power, and with 300 kW, such a large boat would travel slower than 50 mph, and it wouldn’t last more than 45 minutes because you can’t fully drain the batteries if you want to have them a longer time.
With this speedboat and battery setup, you won’t be able to go farther than about 30 km from the starting point if you want to come back at 40–50 mph; for lower speeds, it’s pointless to strain such a boat.

Questions to consider:

• For the intended speeds, is it worth using a surface drive and a clever propeller? In my oppinion it is better almost fully submerged standard prop.
• Is this boat–drive–center of gravity combination even suitable for a surface drive with the planned shaft angle? I think it will be very difficult to lift the bow.

In Germany, there’s MSA Marine Systems. Ask them which material they use for drive shafts. If you can’t find the answer, I can look it up—the material of the shaft is written somewhere in my notes. Material is almost the same like by Mercury, but with German material code.

I love electric propulsion, but its use in speedboats is very limited.

Well the travel distance could be a problem. That’s why I began this thread with asking about the Cigarette AMG Electric Drive. But unfortunately nobody have ever seen here this boat in water. Maybe Cigarette knows how far it was able to travel with one charged battery.

I wouldn't worry about distance yet. I would start with what each motor is going to draw at say, a 70% load. Divide your battery capacity by that and come up with a runtime. Take another 10% off for inefficiencies in power train. Are you left with a time you can reasonably enjoy yourself with?

Sorry to butt in, but there’s no magic wand here.

With 400 hp (300 kW), this speedboat will at best reach 50 mph, and if you have a 300 kWh battery, you can drain it in 45, at most 50, and not 60 minutes. Assuming you’re traveling at 50 mph (probably won’t exceed 45 mph), you’ll have electricity for about 60 km (38 miles).
In reality, the safe range probably won’t exceed 30 miles, or 50 km, and even that only in one direction.

Simply put, this means you’ll have a speedboat for trips within a 25 km radius, or 30 km at most, with a high risk of running out of power somewhere along the way.

I think you’ll need to implement forced water cooling for the motors, because they won’t be submerged while driving.
The motor and drivetrain will weigh at least twice as much as an Arneson drive, and together with the supporting structure, considerably more. This could pose a significant structural challenge, to prevent losing the drive during somewhat aggressive maneuvering.

The original idea of ​​an offshore power boat going from Miami to the Bahamas and back will therefore no longer be possible. But anyway the boat is in Germany, electric drives would make it possible to use the boat in the lake of Constance which is near to my home.

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This is a Battery from the bike. 44 of these would be around 300 kWh. 600 18650 cells 20 in series and 30 parallel. Ten packs in series would make 800 volts. 4 Packs in parallel would then be around 300 kWh.
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Actually the cool thing would be 44 x 50 hp = 2200 hp. So the battery is capable to produce Energy up to 2200 hp. Unfortunately the motor controller I want to use can only handle 2X 320 kW.

you may want to find a step hull,it will move easier thru the water.
who's motors are you thinking about?

Im confident it was never put in the water or planed off under its own power. If they tried it, it was a such a disaster they never said anything about it.

For the actual use of an electric drive in such a speedboat, you would need at least a 1000 kWh battery with a maximum mass of less than two tons. That might still be barely feasible, but how to charge it within an acceptable time is another question.

Electric power is not there yet for leaf blowers and powerboats.

Weed eaters and cars are a different story.

Hey Markus, the current record boat made 182 hp (from the battery) and we just made 305 hp (battery) on a load disk last week. The original boat was a 400 volt system and new one is 700 volts. Around 580 volts under load and can do a bit over 400 amps.

That’s a nice looking bike and battery! Especially for building it at home. With newer 21700 cells you could improve the energy density of that dirt bike pack a decent bit. Depending on if you want more power or range there are a ton of cell options today. Any of the tabless 5 ah 21700 power cells would have more than enough power for you (RS50, 50XG, JP50 are a few). Or you could look at the Molicel P60B which is a great combo of power and energy (although they are very new and likely to be expensive). There are also some new cells like the BAK 65E which is an energy cell that still has decent discharge capability. That would give you the best range but is also likely to be a bit expensive and hard to source in the near future.

All that said I think it’s a really cool project but as others have mentioned it going to be an uphill battle to get what you want out of that hull. The only platform that would be sorta useable for an electric speedboat would be a newer outboard Cat with a big tunnel to handle the extra weight. Even then with today’s battery tech it’ll struggle to do more than 60 miles on a charge. With the absolute state of the art battery pack 80-90 miles would be achievable. I don’t want to dampen your plans but if you want to make something electric it may make sense to start with a smaller speed boat for more local runs and then step up from there.

Let me know if you want any suggestions for motors or inverters. We have looked at some that can do ~1700 hp peak and are the size of an inline 4 engine.

There is a reason Formula E boat racing sucks so much 😂

I have a electric mower and leaf blower that work great .

I’ve been wondering for a long time:
Do these boats have closed cockpits so they can’t help themselves by paddling, or because they’re embarrassed when they’re not going anywhere?

Hi Andrew, thanks for the tip with the 21700 cells. You are right if the battery is that big it don't have to be the high current cell better less current and more capacity. I found a INR 21700-50S with 5000 mAh. 31,600 cells would weight 2275 kg an have 569 kWh. Max drain would be 35 A per cell. If I calculate right it could bring 3981 hp. The cells would cost about 106,000 €. Is at least half capacity what Plavutka thinks, sure 1000 kWh would be better but the weight is important as well.
The controller I mentioned was a Sevcon Size 10 but as Sevcon belongs to Borgwarner it would be maybe possible to get the SiC-PP with up to 900V and 740 Arms. I will put in a picture of it. Sutphen 30 wanted to know what motor I will use. I will also attach some pictures, it will be a DIY motor with the Borgwarner SiC-PP it could bring up to 1600 Nm and 3500 rpm. 586 hp in theore.

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5 kg magnets!
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I see the Hi-power inverter can go up to 740 amps,,whats the continuous amp rating?
I take it this motor you want to use is cheaper than a couple of axial flux motors ganged together?

I find this very interesting this is a topic that I don’t know much about, what would be the physical weight in pounds for the 1700 hp electric motor that would be the size of an in-line four-cylinder motor?

Hey Smarty, the motor I’m referencing here would be a triple stack of the Beyond AX4 axial flux motor. Each one of those motors is 105 lbs and the combined total stack is around 325 lbs. Not super light but not bad for 1725 hp peak and around 900 hp continuous. YASA also recently came out with a hypercar motor and inverter system which is a single inverter and twin motors. Those will make a combined peak power of nearly 2000 hp and around 1000 hp continuously. At a combined weight of just ~125 lbs. So extremely light for the power it can make. The YASA system also does happen to be the highest power density motor and inverter combo in the world by a decent margin.