TulsaLarry

Tom, I appreciate your remarks and opinions. It’s apparent that you are stating your beliefs from first hand knowledge and your own studies instead of using the current “sound bites” that a particular political party may be using.

This thread was started as a response to Moby praising Saddam. I have a problem with people such as Moby and others referring to political people who did not fight in Vietnam as “Chicken hawks”. Back in the sixties when I knew I was going to be drafted I considered the choice of going to Canada in order to avoid fighting in a war I did not believe in but decided I would not be able to live with myself if I made that decision, so I went in the Marine Corps and spent thirteen months around the DMZ in ’68 and ’69.

If you consider the number of people that were of the age to go to Vietnam only a very small percentage of that group went, even considering all the people in the military during the Vietnam era you will find only a fraction went into battle. Just because people were of the right age and didn’t go to Vietnam does not make them a “chicken”.
These are just political “sound bites” that serve no other useful purpose than trying to divide our great country.

As far as the threat of Saddam on the free world, I believe it is real and must be stopped. I do not know the extend of the weapons of mass destruction that Iraq has or will soon have, I trust that the Bush administration will reveal with proof what they have before any attack is made. We have spent too many years ignoring the threats of our enemies and now we are at a crisis point trying to make up for lost time. Many pendants say we are ignoring the terrorists and going after Iraq. I do not believe this for one minute and know that the war on terrorism is continuing.

Steve 1

Ok Tom Where do we start?

Well first let’s get this term Liberal* into its proper context and that would cover everything that is wrong in this Country from Morals on down. Look at a problem and there is a Liberal standing there.Using the word only not the meaning.

Second some of us have actual experience in areas of this Debate, while a Christian and a God fearing Man:

I also have attended Islamic Presentation Committee Seminars
And for years awakened to the Sunrise call to Prayer;
And by the same token heard the word Amerkie during fiery Friday noon sermons (always wondered what we were getting blamed for)

My take on it is as follows;
The Religion can be a Trojan horse; also there is no Clerical Hierocracy,
It has a problem relating to the 21st century and is filled with Hypocrisy, Racism. Bigotry. And just plain old Ignorance.

I also heard 85% of the Mosques in America have Saudi money in them that to me is not comforting.

You see it is not up to us to correct their problems but up to the modern Moslems make the necessary changes themselves.

Israel I have not heard one voice speak about the 700,000 Jews who had to leave their property on Arab Land/Countries, Incidentally living there since before Muhammad was his fathers Bad Idea!!

Iraq
I am sure while in deep contemplation you have seen Saddams Torture Chambers, They like to use carpenter tools; saws and drills. Of course to a full Blown Liberal it does not matter either does:
Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro, China, N. Korea, S. Africa, etc., etc., many millions more murdered than even in Hitler's (socialist) hell of Nazi Germany. Just more of the beloved Big Government what’s a Million dead verses the beauty of all encompassing government control??

Liberal LOL Ponzi Scheme best describes it !! but your problem is we are on to you.

BadDog

I try not to know anything about the musicians I listen to or how sausage is made. Might just spoil it all. Anyone hear of Atomic *****wax? As for desert warfare I trained for around Afghanistan time. Dam we were worked up in tank school when they told us they had some good news and some bad news. The bad news was that the soviets would outnumber us by around 6 to 1 in any battle scenario. The good news was is that we have more targets to shoot at than they do. Looking back I am very glad we never mixed it up with a super power in the dirt. Iraq may not be as easy as it was last time. Watch for some strange chit this time, sort of an end run to what is next.

Tom

See the debate can be taken to a higher level.

TulsaLarry,
I totally agree with you, especially about the sound bites. I mentioned "Chicken Hawks" myself along with many more rediculous sound bites as an attempt to show the obsurdity of using such statements. I do think those that use that particular bite are referring to not just lack of service, but thumping for war too, but that is the trouble with all of the sound bites, they do not give any meaning to the dialog. I sometimes wonder about our priorities re: Saddam, North Korea, Afganistan, terroroists, etc., but Saddam seems to be going well so far, who knows how to handle the North Korea thing, and overall we are definately taking action on all of them. I do worry that the rest of the world seems to be getting a negative opinion of us and that could affect our ability to get them to help us.

Steve 1,
I'm confused about what a Liberal is. Are you one? How do you define them?

It must have been pretty interesting to visit the Islamic stuff. Did you have a friend who could translate for you, or do you speak their language? Of all the religions I know the least about them. There are some things I just plain cannot fathom, like how they treat women. I don't think I can ever hear an acceptable excuse, but I sure would like to hear one from them. I was a child in Dearborn, MI. The largest Muslim community in the US is there and they always scared me. My guess is that a large percent of American businesses have Saudi and other Muslim money in them and that makes me nervous too. I don't think we can afford to wait for the Muslims to clean up their own mess, we have to do something before it is too late.

The Jews have 2000+ years of being persecuted. After all that no wonder some of them have a chip on their shoulder. I spent a week in Tokyo with a guy once who every time we went to a sushi bar, he would strike up a conversation with the sushi chef if he spoke English. It always went like this: "Do you know where I am from? No. Isreal, do you know where that is? Middle East. Do you know how many people we have? No. 5 million, do you know how many enemies surround us? No. 250 million. You know how strong that would make you?" I don't think he was helping his cause or affectively communicating.

There are so many things I love about Jewish culture. I can't imagine how 2500+ years of persecution would affect me. I also think blacks and Indians have had a pretty bad deal too. No, that doesn't mean I am for quotas or even indian reservations for that matter.

Closest I have ever been to torture anything was I bought an ice cream outside the torture museum in London, but didn't have the stomach to go inside and barf up a perfectly good treat. I can't even contemplate how badly we are capable of treating each other, unless you have tried marriage.

I'm not sure how Liberals have anything to do with you list of attrocities or what the rest of your post means. Is the definition of a Liberal someone who is a dictator who commits horrible acts? I guess that would explain why so many people use the word in such a hate filled manner.

What does we are on to you mean? Why is that my problem? I am really sorry if I did anything to offend you or whoever else belongs to the "we". I am just trying to raise the level of debate and frankly am excited that I might be able to share something real with my friends.

I think you made many very good points and made me think some new thoughts. Please keep up the dialog. I think you have a lot to contribute.

cpqtim,
Love the part about the musicians and sausages. I was hoping Iraq would be easier this time. Still wish we finished it during Bush 1 when we had the chance and the world behind us.

Allan4

Tom.....I think most of us would rather sit around an BS about boats. But we also would all like to live disease free until 100, never lose a loved one and be well into the highest tax bracket. But, reality sets in, and not that this is the #1 forum for political discussion, but I think there are a great collection of intelligent people on this site. That is why I spend 99% of my web time here. I think we can cover a broad rang of topics.

I do not think we want to wipe out an entire people, just the evilness among them. This includes domestic terrorists as well. Remember Oak City? I also do not beleive the latest liberal bandwagon that Bush has side stepped the war on terrorists. Because the media decides not to put it on the front page, does not mean it is not still underway. I agree with TulsaLarry. I like Bush because he seems to be a reasonble, good intentioned, stern man. I think that is the guy for the job, one who will worry more about realistic repurcutions than poll-related repurcussions. My .02....again

Good info on this thread from all you guys. Learning as well as sharing...........A4

Oh yeah, bat boating.......I got some seat time in a few of these guys via Reindl......Last summer I lived about 3 minutes from his shop. Good guys.........

Steve 1

I'm not sure how Liberals have anything to do with you list of attrocities or what the rest of your post means. Is the definition of a Liberal someone who is a dictator who commits horrible acts? I guess that would explain why so many people use the word in such a hate filled manner
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Tom you see and know the word Liberal is a Cloak it’s the name these “Useful Idiots” in this country call them selves while toddling along behind their handlers.

Fidel Castro is a another Liberal forget the word communism Its liberalism and all the liberals love him BTW one look at Jesse Jackson and the Hollywood leftists and their fondness for Saddam and fidel

Now Joseph Stalin That was a Great Liberal! He said “Cut the legs of the tall to match the short” Right?

Only in this country the leg cutting is the redistribution of wealth Via Taxation and Social Programs.

Not mentioning the fact that the Prisons are full of Liberals who believe it is ok to acquire wealth without Well lets say “without working for it”. The felon vote LOL!

The Jews well lets say in the last thousand years they bred more for intelligence while their counter part over there married his cousin!

The proof like I said before would be Nobel Laureates in the hard sciences Right??? Between the two groups?