OT: 21 killed in stampede at a Chicago night club..... absolutely terrible.
02-18-2003, 12:00 PM
#11
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Summer, I think you did read into this wrong. You and I are on the same team here. I stated in my original post that "the owners need to be jailed for many years, perhaps life"
So yes, ultimately they are the guilty party, thie final decision maker and I hope they pay, without question. However, if the fire marshall and authorities know this place is a death trap (maybe I am blowing this outta proportion, not sure what exactly happened, maybe Cord or another firefighter can educate me here), why was it still open?? Why wasn't it forced to be closed and stay closed?? The people who's job consists of keeping buildings safe were apparently privey to this by issueing a court order to close, so why was it not enforced?? Is that the owners fault? Absolutely, but what about the guy asleep at the wheel who's job is to enforce this court order. Where was he?? I guess another way to look at this is if a judge hands down a sentence (or a court order) to a criminal, will the criminal volunteer himself to serve time in prison?? Probably not, that is why there are people who are hired to enforce the court order.....the prison gaurds, baliffs and police. They ensure the court order/sentence is followed. It is their job. So my question is, where was the enforcement?? I hope all that made bad decisions are held accountable.
Again, you and I agree, I just think you read into it wrong or I posted it wrong. Thanks for the pm, Allan.
So yes, ultimately they are the guilty party, thie final decision maker and I hope they pay, without question. However, if the fire marshall and authorities know this place is a death trap (maybe I am blowing this outta proportion, not sure what exactly happened, maybe Cord or another firefighter can educate me here), why was it still open?? Why wasn't it forced to be closed and stay closed?? The people who's job consists of keeping buildings safe were apparently privey to this by issueing a court order to close, so why was it not enforced?? Is that the owners fault? Absolutely, but what about the guy asleep at the wheel who's job is to enforce this court order. Where was he?? I guess another way to look at this is if a judge hands down a sentence (or a court order) to a criminal, will the criminal volunteer himself to serve time in prison?? Probably not, that is why there are people who are hired to enforce the court order.....the prison gaurds, baliffs and police. They ensure the court order/sentence is followed. It is their job. So my question is, where was the enforcement?? I hope all that made bad decisions are held accountable.
Again, you and I agree, I just think you read into it wrong or I posted it wrong. Thanks for the pm, Allan.
02-18-2003, 12:17 PM
#12
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To clarify a bit further, I didn't take your comment as your personal view of guilt. We are on the same team. I agree that enforcement was probably lacking. My view was more on the line that people COULD and probably WILL blame enforcement for this horrible tradgedy while at the same time overlooking who is REALLY to blame.
It seems this happens all too often these days.
It seems this happens all too often these days.
02-18-2003, 12:23 PM
#13
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This tragedy is terrible and so avoidable. This should never have happened.
There's no one who hates frivolous lawsuits more so then I; I'm a strong proponent of personal responsibility, but this is a different case.
People are not expected to know the fire codes inside and out before entering an establishment. Do you look for the nearest fire exit when eating dinner in a resteraunt? Was it locked? This isn't a case of spilling coffee or eating ones' self into obesity....
Clearly, the proprieters of this club are to blame, but I do feel that the authorities did too little to monitor the situation and prevent the club from opening its doors.
The club was already found in violation of codes...Why were they still able to operate?
There's no one who hates frivolous lawsuits more so then I; I'm a strong proponent of personal responsibility, but this is a different case.
People are not expected to know the fire codes inside and out before entering an establishment. Do you look for the nearest fire exit when eating dinner in a resteraunt? Was it locked? This isn't a case of spilling coffee or eating ones' self into obesity....
Clearly, the proprieters of this club are to blame, but I do feel that the authorities did too little to monitor the situation and prevent the club from opening its doors.
The club was already found in violation of codes...Why were they still able to operate?
02-18-2003, 12:26 PM
#14
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Yes, you are certainly correct. Blame is typically misdirected and repurcussions these days are begining to become a joke. That is why I want everyone involved to be held accoutnable, not just the owners, who ultimately are the #1 culprits. You are right on.
I also agree with you that frivilous lawsuits are WAY outta control.
A4
I also agree with you that frivilous lawsuits are WAY outta control.
A4
02-18-2003, 12:37 PM
#15
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Allan4, to the best of my knowledge (might be wrong) I think they closed the second floor only. In Cincinnati we do life safety inspections on clubs at night and basically look for overcrowding etc... If they are overcrowded we shut them down till they are below the #. We also inspect them during the day for fire violations such as exits and other hazards. One thing you have to remember is that we have to do this on top of making runs, hydrants, and other work. Chicago is a big city and has alot more bars/clubs to check out and it's tough if not impossible to get them all here in Cincy, much less Chicago.
The Beverly Hills Supper club had exits, they just opened inwards, which is why all exit doors open out now.
The Beverly Hills Supper club had exits, they just opened inwards, which is why all exit doors open out now.
02-18-2003, 12:50 PM
#16
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Now you guys have heard the latest, right?
Police confirmed that there were 3 exits - and all 3 exits were accessable - nothing was chained closed. It's simply that the people went in through one entrance and all tried to exit out of the same entrance.
Also, there seems to be a slight controversy about whether the club ccould conduct business. The controversy stems from the "upper" portion of the club - the lower portion isn't an issue - there was no problem in that regard.
The owner claims that the only part of the upper bar that couldn't have been open was the "VIP" section - which was closed.
So -- it seems like the owner might not be such a monster after all.
I'd just like to know which village idiot started the panic by saying there was anthrax.
Police confirmed that there were 3 exits - and all 3 exits were accessable - nothing was chained closed. It's simply that the people went in through one entrance and all tried to exit out of the same entrance.
Also, there seems to be a slight controversy about whether the club ccould conduct business. The controversy stems from the "upper" portion of the club - the lower portion isn't an issue - there was no problem in that regard.
The owner claims that the only part of the upper bar that couldn't have been open was the "VIP" section - which was closed.
So -- it seems like the owner might not be such a monster after all.
I'd just like to know which village idiot started the panic by saying there was anthrax.
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02-18-2003, 01:27 PM
#19
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Thanks CFD5 for helping out there. You mean you guys do more than dodge rocks being thrown at you by the friendly nieghbors you have...HeHeHe....
It's hard to say what difinitely happened, like I said in one of my posts, you never know, and we obviously do not have any of the info here. However, my point has been though that it appears the ball was dropped in several different places. Also, what about the bouncers who maced the crowd?? I've been in tons of bars and seen tons of fights, but have never been maced!!!! Or someone said something about anthrax....?? Geeezzz, what a mess. Guess we should not be speculating
Either way, I find it hard to just say that 21 people died and it could not have been avoided. Somewhere, someone is the culprit and we know very little facts I guess sitting here on OSO!!!
I'm just as guilty as the next guy on that I guess, but something just doesn't seem right here.
A4
It's hard to say what difinitely happened, like I said in one of my posts, you never know, and we obviously do not have any of the info here. However, my point has been though that it appears the ball was dropped in several different places. Also, what about the bouncers who maced the crowd?? I've been in tons of bars and seen tons of fights, but have never been maced!!!! Or someone said something about anthrax....?? Geeezzz, what a mess. Guess we should not be speculating
Either way, I find it hard to just say that 21 people died and it could not have been avoided. Somewhere, someone is the culprit and we know very little facts I guess sitting here on OSO!!!
I'm just as guilty as the next guy on that I guess, but something just doesn't seem right here.A4
02-18-2003, 03:32 PM
#20
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Allan4, I guess I have to disagree. There are times and events where there are just tragic accidents. Sad and regrettable and perhaps we can learn from the event and take measures to prevent in the future. That does not mean someone is always to blame. There is not always a culprit.
The court order to close was based on structural issues that do not seem to play a role in the tragedy. It appears they should not have been open due to failure to supply engineering diagrams and possibly not enough exits(conflicting reports). There were however three stairwells from the dance area that were all accessible. All the injuries occured at one exit where apparently all the people tried to go. The panic started from the spraying of mace which is legal for security personnel to poses and use. Someone apparently shouted anthrax or poison or terrorist attack or some such nonsence. BTW the city said it would not have been legal for them to padlock the door. But really say they met codes and the club was open legally. How would the events played differently? Unless the size and steepness of the "primary" staircase was at issue or they were overcapacity (heard conflicting reports) the same result would have occured.
The court order to close was based on structural issues that do not seem to play a role in the tragedy. It appears they should not have been open due to failure to supply engineering diagrams and possibly not enough exits(conflicting reports). There were however three stairwells from the dance area that were all accessible. All the injuries occured at one exit where apparently all the people tried to go. The panic started from the spraying of mace which is legal for security personnel to poses and use. Someone apparently shouted anthrax or poison or terrorist attack or some such nonsence. BTW the city said it would not have been legal for them to padlock the door. But really say they met codes and the club was open legally. How would the events played differently? Unless the size and steepness of the "primary" staircase was at issue or they were overcapacity (heard conflicting reports) the same result would have occured.
