Boat sinking at LOTO ?
07-10-2003, 08:33 AM
#21
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Originally posted by IDRPSTF
Is it me, or did the write up say Nothing about anyone trying to help this poor woman? Was she knocked out? Was the door locked? or are we lall just talking about how now there will be more No Wake Zones?
Is it me, or did the write up say Nothing about anyone trying to help this poor woman? Was she knocked out? Was the door locked? or are we lall just talking about how now there will be more No Wake Zones?
I saw her son on the News and he said he was in the cabin also, and that he had ahold of her as he went for an opening but as he went through the opening he lost his grip and lost his hold on her. He looked to be about 16 or 17 years old, how devastating it must be for him.
07-10-2003, 09:26 AM
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Registration/licensing??
As much as I hate government involvement in anything - accidents like this really make you wonder if there needs to be some kind of license to operate anything. Being a commercially licensed pilot and having gone through the training and check rides involved, I really am starting to think that boats (and automobiles - case in point Germany) should require the operator to actually know a few things more than how to turn the key. The same morons driving a cruiser and putting out a monster wake are the exact same people that 2 years ago (or 2 years in the future) are going to take a performance boat, run over someone and then cause bans/legislation of go-fast boats. Granted, you can't legislate common sense, but perhaps you could keep at least a few of these idiots off the water.
07-10-2003, 10:49 AM
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JROMY
From what I understand this was probably a series of events that led to a situation that the operator was not able to handle. Mechanical problems, some flooding in the engine compartment, followed by a wake that swamped it. I dont want to place blame but that part of the lake is where ALL boats come off plane for the no wake zone leaving big wakes, not just the cruisers.
Stopping there in a position where the wakes would come over your transom may not have wise decision. I think it's more experience that's needed rather than legislation, at least in this case.
Gary
From what I understand this was probably a series of events that led to a situation that the operator was not able to handle. Mechanical problems, some flooding in the engine compartment, followed by a wake that swamped it. I dont want to place blame but that part of the lake is where ALL boats come off plane for the no wake zone leaving big wakes, not just the cruisers.
Stopping there in a position where the wakes would come over your transom may not have wise decision. I think it's more experience that's needed rather than legislation, at least in this case.
Gary
07-10-2003, 11:35 AM
#24
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Jromy,
As a fellow liscensed pilot I have to disagree. Piloting a plane takes much more skill and training to be proficent, boating takes common sense and some knowledge of your surrounding, more so than driving a car does since there are many more traffic controls, but common sense none the less. There are laws aginst BUI and DUI but people still do it, there are manditory insurance requirements for liscesing a car, but I still know people who get it by people with no insurance or no liscenses.
This is a tragic accident, maybe there should be more flotation requirements for recreational vessels. But also if you consider there were several thousand boats on the lake that weekend and 1 fatality, would liscensing have stopped this from happening? Probably not. If everyone on board had on life jackets would it of helped? Probably not, if someone else was in the cabin like her son, would he have also become trapped because of the life jacket? These people probably ever dreamed that their boat could become swamped by boat wakes, maybe they had idled through there 50 times in the past, we justs don't know. The Titanic captian was trained, so was the captain of the valdez, the andrea dora, edmond fitzgerald and on and on but it didn't save them either.
Sometimes circumstances happen that no matter what, something tragic happens.
As a fellow liscensed pilot I have to disagree. Piloting a plane takes much more skill and training to be proficent, boating takes common sense and some knowledge of your surrounding, more so than driving a car does since there are many more traffic controls, but common sense none the less. There are laws aginst BUI and DUI but people still do it, there are manditory insurance requirements for liscesing a car, but I still know people who get it by people with no insurance or no liscenses.
This is a tragic accident, maybe there should be more flotation requirements for recreational vessels. But also if you consider there were several thousand boats on the lake that weekend and 1 fatality, would liscensing have stopped this from happening? Probably not. If everyone on board had on life jackets would it of helped? Probably not, if someone else was in the cabin like her son, would he have also become trapped because of the life jacket? These people probably ever dreamed that their boat could become swamped by boat wakes, maybe they had idled through there 50 times in the past, we justs don't know. The Titanic captian was trained, so was the captain of the valdez, the andrea dora, edmond fitzgerald and on and on but it didn't save them either.
Sometimes circumstances happen that no matter what, something tragic happens.
07-10-2003, 03:27 PM
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This made me think of an Outerlimits that sank a few years back in Oswego NY at Harborfest. Although there's a few different stories, apparently the guy had his engine hatch up, had bigger motors than had been planned for in the boat, had the boat in reverse, and accidentally hit full throttle. By all accounts, the boat went down in an instant - luckily no one was trapped on board. Not to say that's what happened in this case, just a point on how quick something can happen under certain circumstances.
07-10-2003, 04:04 PM
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Von Bongo, I have to take the other side on this one. I have a commercial lic. as well and I do agree, it takes more training to learn the systems of an aircraft, there cause and effect and FAA Laws. Boating is not just "Common sense" there are laws, there are Cause and effect while driving, and there are systems. Look at how many people on this site cant agree over Tabs vs.Drives on a stepped hull. Or What position should tabs be in on a cruiser, what about V-drive vs. I/O. Tabs on Direct drive, Pulse drive, Transmissions vs. no transmissions. Someone should make us all get a license. Lets face it, its trail and error with heavy large equipment and people are getting hurt and killed. There is no I.Q. test to drive a boat, No training or licensing if you are not charging money for hire in California you have to be over 12 years old to operate a vessel. That should be a minimum requirement for a library card, not to drive a boat.
I am not a "Big Government" believer. But someone should control what knowledge and ability it takes to drive a boat. Let me put it this way. If there was a test, I am confident I would pass. So whats the harm? That is not being conceited, I just figure for as many as I drive and how many lives are in my hands when I leave the dock I better know what I am doing. I treat boating like flying. It is a large machine that can kill a whole lot of people if I do not understand what I am doing. The FAA says I can fly a plane... Shouldn't someone say the same about a boat?
I am not a "Big Government" believer. But someone should control what knowledge and ability it takes to drive a boat. Let me put it this way. If there was a test, I am confident I would pass. So whats the harm? That is not being conceited, I just figure for as many as I drive and how many lives are in my hands when I leave the dock I better know what I am doing. I treat boating like flying. It is a large machine that can kill a whole lot of people if I do not understand what I am doing. The FAA says I can fly a plane... Shouldn't someone say the same about a boat?
07-10-2003, 05:29 PM
#27
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Ok, so let us say for a point of argument that we liscense, do we make them take a captians liscense and be able to read nautical and tidal charts? Nightime navigation by the stars? How proficient is someone going to be that boats on a 500 acre lake in a 19 foot bayliner? Do I have to have a different liscense if I want to drop my boat in the missouri river so I can read can and nun bouys? What about the ocean?
Ok, so do we make it so basic that you have to know what you need to have on your boat and what the 5 most common bouys mean? A 25 question test like a car exam? Do we make it different based on displacement? Horsepower? Boat possible top speed? Do I need 25 hours of training to in my type of boat by a certified boat instructor after passing a 250 question timed test? Missouri just passed a law that people under 16 have to take a boater safety course, is that enough? Do i need to have a minimum of 3 nightime cross current dockings in the last 90 days before I can pull my friends waterskiing?
I guess one good thing about it, if it cost a few grand, plus about 40 hours in seat time with an instructor and a couple of months of "water" school classes to be able to drive a basic 4 seat 135hp bayliner, along with a review every 2 years and a physical...I won't be *****ing about the large number of boats at LOTO because they will all be gone.
BTW how many of our peer pilots simply run out of gas each year, with all that expensive training and liscensing???? 280 since 1-1-98 that is 51 EACH YEAR that can't keep enough gas in the plane to get where they want to go. I guess we need to do a better job of liscensing us pilots so we can look in the f-in tank and do a few fuel calculations.
Sorry to rant, my point is, how can you make a recreational boating liscense effective when you have such a diverse group of boats and operating environmets that will truly have an impact?
Ok, so do we make it so basic that you have to know what you need to have on your boat and what the 5 most common bouys mean? A 25 question test like a car exam? Do we make it different based on displacement? Horsepower? Boat possible top speed? Do I need 25 hours of training to in my type of boat by a certified boat instructor after passing a 250 question timed test? Missouri just passed a law that people under 16 have to take a boater safety course, is that enough? Do i need to have a minimum of 3 nightime cross current dockings in the last 90 days before I can pull my friends waterskiing?
I guess one good thing about it, if it cost a few grand, plus about 40 hours in seat time with an instructor and a couple of months of "water" school classes to be able to drive a basic 4 seat 135hp bayliner, along with a review every 2 years and a physical...I won't be *****ing about the large number of boats at LOTO because they will all be gone.
BTW how many of our peer pilots simply run out of gas each year, with all that expensive training and liscensing???? 280 since 1-1-98 that is 51 EACH YEAR that can't keep enough gas in the plane to get where they want to go. I guess we need to do a better job of liscensing us pilots so we can look in the f-in tank and do a few fuel calculations.
Sorry to rant, my point is, how can you make a recreational boating liscense effective when you have such a diverse group of boats and operating environmets that will truly have an impact?
07-10-2003, 06:53 PM
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I think you made some very good points and answered your own question. How about a basic license limited to size and horsepower restrictions (Just like the FAA). Then add certifications for Complex, and High performance. Driving and navigating at night should be at the boaters discretion (Much like the FAA). What about multi Engine boat certification, thats another prop to go over someone?
And Yes, Boaters should know basic navigation and what buoys mean. a 19ft Bayliner can blast through a no wake area at 50mph just like a Fountain can if the driver has no idea what he is doing.
BUI's and DUI's can be reviewed and licenses revoked. I know a USCG Licensed Captain who has a California Sales License that also has 2 DUI's in California and 3 in Mexico! He still drives boats and nobody can stop him from doing it. And yes, he boats drunk! What about Dennis Rodman? He racked up about 15 speeding tickets through Newport Harbors 5mph area in one summer because he could afford to pay them and there was no license to revoke.
3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. Let me repeat that...3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. And I sell mostly High Performance. Some have had catastrophic accidents, most call to find out who does good gel coat or fiberglass work. And as far as I know, non have died in boating related accidents. I offer training FOR FREE!!! to anyone I sell a boat to.
So, do I think we need the government to step in and unfortunately take away some of our freedoms for our own good. In this case YES!
This would effect my life as a Broker more than most on this board and I still say yes.
Just don't put Troutly in charge!
And Yes, Boaters should know basic navigation and what buoys mean. a 19ft Bayliner can blast through a no wake area at 50mph just like a Fountain can if the driver has no idea what he is doing.
BUI's and DUI's can be reviewed and licenses revoked. I know a USCG Licensed Captain who has a California Sales License that also has 2 DUI's in California and 3 in Mexico! He still drives boats and nobody can stop him from doing it. And yes, he boats drunk! What about Dennis Rodman? He racked up about 15 speeding tickets through Newport Harbors 5mph area in one summer because he could afford to pay them and there was no license to revoke.
3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. Let me repeat that...3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. And I sell mostly High Performance. Some have had catastrophic accidents, most call to find out who does good gel coat or fiberglass work. And as far as I know, non have died in boating related accidents. I offer training FOR FREE!!! to anyone I sell a boat to.
So, do I think we need the government to step in and unfortunately take away some of our freedoms for our own good. In this case YES!
This would effect my life as a Broker more than most on this board and I still say yes.
Just don't put Troutly in charge!
07-11-2003, 04:08 PM
#29
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Originally posted by IDRPSTF
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3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. Let me repeat that...3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. And I sell mostly High Performance. Some have had catastrophic accidents, most call to find out who does good gel coat or fiberglass work. And as far as I know, non have died in boating related accidents. I offer training FOR FREE!!! to anyone I sell a boat to................................
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3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. Let me repeat that...3/4 of the people I sell boats to refuse training. And I sell mostly High Performance. Some have had catastrophic accidents, most call to find out who does good gel coat or fiberglass work. And as far as I know, non have died in boating related accidents. I offer training FOR FREE!!! to anyone I sell a boat to................................
Man, that is scary. I can't imagine having that mentality - but that is the mentality that worries me. I know when I was learning to drive, I jumped at any offers to get on a race track for training. Same thing goes for aircraft - I flew aerobatics for a while at the school the French Connection ran at Flagler airport. As well as really knowing how to do things right and be safe, you also look like way less of an idiot when you have a big audience and dock your new Cigarette boat into the local restaurant without smashing into everything in sight (because you can't figure out where the brakes are)....
