What would you do if your new used boat had the hour meter disconnected?
 

Hi guys, i am going to pose a question for a friend of mine who finds himself in a predicament:

he purchased a used 2001 Fountain 35 Classic from a very reputable fountain dealer in New Hampshire. the boat appears to be in excellent condition with a pair of 502 mags and 80 hours on the meter. His third day out on the boat the port motor died and he returned on 1 engine to his house. while looking around the engine compartment for anything obvious it was discovered that the hour meter was unplugged. The marina came to his house and replaced the bad fuel pump free of charge and the boat was running again. At the end of the weekend he returned the boat to the marina and they agreed to hook to the engine computers and retrieve the hours. He has now found out that instead of 80 hours his boat has very close to 200 hours on it. The marina was very forthright about this and he has agreed to meet with the owner of the marina to try and work out an agreement.

Here is the question: What would you do?

1) Ask for your money back and walk away from the boat? (he has only owned it for two weeks)

Or

2) Go for an extended warranty to make up the difference? He only puts about 20 hours each on his boats so I would say 5 years would cover it.


I do not know if the boat was a trade in or a brokered boat, but it seems to be a bad situation for all involved. I am just curious as to what you guys would find to be a suitable solution.


Matt Burns

I don't think this is the first time this has every been done by dealers. I would expect if you purchased any new boat from dealer inventory there is a good chance that it has been demo'd without the hour meters hooked up.

I would go to another dealer that has the computer scan tool. From what I understand it can tell you exactly how many hours are on the engines and how they were run in terms of max RPM.

If this checked out OK I would not worry about it.

Good Luck

You would not worry about the engines having 120 more hours on them then you were told or paid for? Wow.

I would go for bulletproof extended warranties, ask for two new engines, or walk away. Even if he stole the boat, he's just getting into the expensive hours.

My two cents.

Tell your friend to drive it over to the dealer and get his money back. Why would he even consider doing anything else? There is a huge difference between 80 hours and 200. Not only on the engines, but on the Hull. I have worked for a dealer that did that **** deliberately! It is called lying!!! So if you lie about the engine hours, what else will you lie about? There are two kids of dealers Honest and dishonest! Its black and white my friends. If the dealer takes the boat back in and gives a full refund and makes an effort to help your friend get another boat, he is a stand up guy. If he trys to B.S. his way around it then don't walk away...RUN!
If I sold you that boat, I would take it back. Because I do honest business. I would not have disconnected the meter. And If it was a brokered boat that I represented I would take it back and drive it straight up the sellers ass!
C'mon, start holding people accountable for there actions instead of letting them off the hook with a warranty. Plus Fountain Warranties usually are a head ache anyway.

The difference in price on a boat with 80 hours than a boat with 200 hours .There would have to be a compensation diff not just a extended warranty, . There would be some depreciation and think about resale for when he gets ready to resale starting out with 200 hour not 80.The extended warranty on merc usually has a good mark up,The best i can remember its about 1300-1500. The deprecation on it with a extra 120 hours would be a lot more.!! they warranty on the hull would be by the years not hours, talk to the prev owner and see who disconnected them.Depending on what part of 2001 this guy bought the boat thats a lot of Horus per season.

Most extended warranty has a deductible?

Sounds like they are being VERY honest. They didn't have to disclose the truth. I'd see if they are willing to make a price adjustment. The value between the actual and disclosed hours should be pretty cut & dried.

I think you'd only get one or the other. If he bought the boat at a reduced price knowing there were 200 hours on it - he wouldn't be expecting a warranty on it, would he? So he's entitled to one or the other, if he wants to keep the boat.

Personally...if I liked the boat and didn't want to give it up...I'd go with some type of warranty deal. But who knows...I'm an idiot when it comes to my own boat!:D :rolleyes:

What do you mean "They didn't have to disclose the truth" This is not an attack on you Cord, I just see this happen at dealers and they get away with it. If you did this to a cars odometer, It FEDERAL Jail! They didn't disclose it until the guy went back with the wire disconnected. Thats called getting caught!
So lets all play a little number game here. The game is called "How much is this boat worth?" not How much is the asking price, or even how much did this poor guy pay. But, how much is it worth?
For the sake of argument lets call real dollars on a 2001 Fountain classic with 80 hours on 502 fairly well loaded $155K with a trailer.
Now what is that boat worth with 200 hours on it. Not just on the power, But on the whole boat.

I say no more than $115K in todays market. Maybe more like $105?

What do you guys think?

You bought the boat uder the pretences that it had 80 hours, now that it has 200 hours the value has decreased. A law suit will get you know where if your trying to resolve this quickly, if you like the boat, and the dealer is willing to work with you, get it surveyed, check for stress cracks, have the dealer repair the engines to the correct specs, and go through the drives, these are the important items, and let the dealer go after the party that traded it in to recoup their losses, thats there problem, not yours. Any reputable dealer will make it right for you, to make sure you are 100% happy. I wish you good luck.

How about this. I bought my boat under the assumption it had the hours on it that were on the hour meters. A couple of years later when I had to go behind the dash, I found that the hour meters were way newer than the other guages in the dash. WTF

Anyway I bought the boat based on the condition of the obvious and hoped the engines would last at least a season. Well the motors did run longer than expected and I have yet to find any other surprises.

If your buddy paid for what he thought were 80 hours, I think he should be compensated for the difference. What that difference is, who knows.

G

Why do people call a broker when they buy a boat again? Oh yea, now I remember!

Well, the boat was used and somebody had to put those hours on it. The wire was proably pulled by the prior owner who wanted the trade-in value. The dealer could have read the computers and reported 75 hours. They instead disclosed the actual hours knowing that it was going to cost them.

Depends on how the extra 120 hours were put on the boat; like slow cruiseing or a lot of WOT.

"if it checked out ok", meaning it did have the hours on it that they claimed.

If not, hell yeah, I would be pissed and would take action!

Even if he got two new motors, what about the drives? Gimbel's? Was it Salt or Fresh? Was it flushed every time, How about stress on the hull? An extra 120 hours of questions. I have seen drives get swapped off inventory boats and used on another boat for a race, then get put back on the inventory boat. How about the owner of a dealership disconnect the Hour meters right in front of me, put four hours on the boat for a commercial shoot, hit another boat (Yes Hit another boat, HARD!) Get Boarded by the Navy Scratching the other side, Re-painting the boat, hooking the hour meters back up and selling it as new. That was just one boat on the lot. The others all had similar stories. Two complete re-paints in one year, Many drive swaps, Most had hour meters pulled, and just about every Sea Trail took the boat to full power within the first .01hours of the engine ever being started. I don't care if its new or used, ALWAYS get a survey! There are dealers out there that do take care of there inventory boats. But some don't. Most people don't have time to check out every dealership. That is why when buying a new boat
1. Always have someone other than the dealers mechanic inspect the boat and pull the codes off the engines
2. Run the Drive, Gimbel, and engine serial numbers through Merc and the Manufacturer to make sure they all match (Yes even if the boat has 0 hours)
3. Survey, Always get a survey (Even on 0 hour boats)
4. Get hours on meters and engines in writing from the dealer, that way if this happens you can give him his high hour boat back.
If you are buying a Pre Owned boat get a Broker (Buyers Brokers will not charge, they get paid buy the seller and that cost is usually factored into the asking price of the boat already)
Your broker should be able to supply you with Surveyors, Mechanics, and all of the proper documentation to assist you in buying a boat. Dealers hate it when you walk in with your broker!!! And get a Broker that specializes in High performance if that is what you are buying. Buying a boat is supposed to be fun, remember?

In reality, engine hours do not mean very much. The number of hours should not be used in itself as a determining factor of the condition of the engines. A boat with 80 hrs and 1 oil change is much worse of than a boat with 200 with the oil changed every 10 hrs and run rather easily. If a boat has to have the ignition on to play the radio will run up the hour meter and the engines are not running. I would have the dealer do a leakdown test and go from there.

I took my boat in for service to Maveric Marine this particular time, when I went to pick it up the guy informed me that my hour meter was a couple of hours ahead of the motors and said I must have left the key on at some point. He got the info from the computer and said I should know for future reference...

I see 3 options:

a) return the boat for a full refund
b) have dealer throw in a full powertrain warranty for 2 additional years (60 hrs/year sounds about right).
c) new motors and drives

Boats have no disclosure regulations regarding true hours or miles, etc. For this reason it is not REQUIRED of the dealer to disclose. The Merc computers keep track of the hours, though, and it would serve them no purpose to attempt a coverup at this point cause it is so easy to get somebody else to plug in and get the hours..

Did the dealer know the true hours? I dunno. He's a dealer and has access to a Merc scan tool, so I'm guessing he did (regardless of whether it was a trade or not).

A lawsuit will go NOWHERE on this boat. The buyer had full opportunity to get the boat surveyed and the computers scanned himself before he purchased. I'd think the dealer would be more open to a discussion regarding warranty or refund than the other options...

I agree that a 200 hour boat is very different than a 80 hour boat. But who had the book that can tell us what the price difference really is? That's where the arguments will start flying...

My Formula had the hour meter dicsonnected when I bought it in 1991. Difference is, that I saw it, knew it, and paid a discounted demo price for the boat instead of a 4-hour price (boat had appx 25 hrs on it).


Good luck.

see what kind of compensation they offer your buddy then ask for ALOT more.

its a buyers market right now.
they probably dont want the boat back.
if nothing else , they should give your buddy the amount of commision if it was a brokered boat.

if they play hardball a call from a lawyer might get them motivated.

best of luck.

Thats a tuff one...I would give it back, but Im sure by now he's attached to it.

If the boat was represented with hours on the hour meter as the basis of sale price, the dealer is on the hook. Most states have laws on the books regarding fraud. Whether dealer was aware of it or not is another matter, as well as being able to prove that the dealer was aware of it. but, a dealer also can't plead ignorance, as they certainly must be aware that you can check hours with scan tool.

i don't know if there is a basis to "give it back" to dealer. especially, since title should be in name of new owner. I would work on negotiating cash-back from dealer. If dealer not willing to play ball, probably will be time for attorney and/or state attorney generals office to get involved.

unfortunately, your friend really dropped the ball in not checking the computers. It also would be interesting to see on a surveyed boat transaction if a surveyor didn't access the computer hours as well.

Bottom line is that the dealer did not check the hours ( or maybe they did) and sold the boat as an "80 hour boat" when in fact it had more. I would bet they checked it as they know better and I am sure would like to know the true story behind the boat. They know better and they know the law so they are on the hook and your buddy could really put the hurt on them. Instead he should hold that ace and ask for the world and make sure they know just how far this could go if there is no JUSTICE.:eek:

I agree COMPLETELY!!!!!!

What he bought and what ws represented to him were TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!!!!!!

Think about resale. I think IDRPSTF is right on the money with about a 30-40000 price difference! Maybe the boat is great, but the fact is he overpaid based on a sellers false representation of the goods.

If the dealer is honest and fair, either get them to find one just like it with the hours he wants, or pay the difference to him in the value. Fountain builds a lot of boats, so finding one shouldn't be to difficult.
I hope for his sake he is dealing with an honest and fair dealer:D

one girls opinion; most perf boats are sold when they get mechanicaly tired. the cost of repowering is staggering. so detail them and move them.i recomend buying without power and power it yourself. take out the guess work. just one girls opinion.

cya im going for a boat ride.

I bet when they took the boat in they put the scan tool on it to check the motors and hours, especially if it was a trade in............

Can you clear the engine hour meter? Do the mechanics have the tools to clear the computer (hr)?
WHAT is stopping them from this? Just a few questions for a dummie (me)

like i said take out the guess work.power it yourself.

short ride lucy!

If the dealer was trying to pull a fast one, why wouldnt he have hooked the hr meter back up before the new owner took delivery. Sounds to me like he just didnt know. Stupid on his part and now he should do what it takes to satisfy the new owner.

I agree.

I don't think the dealer knew for these reasons:

They would have never left the hour meter unplugged on delivery

They would have lied about the hours that were on the boat or maybe fudged them by only 10 or 20 hours

If they did check the engine hours, and noticed the difference, I would think even an idiot would check to see if the hour meter was unplugged.

A large group of us have dealt with this dealership for several years, and aside from the usual marina BS, they have always been straight shooters with us. I also think they realize the rock and hard place they are caught between as word travels fast up in this area and they do not need there reputation tarnished over something they were not aware of. In hindsight, where I do think they fall short is there inspections of trade in boats. This particular boat was freshwater only, and it was a one owner trade on a lightning with 575's. They just assumed the guy wanted to move up and did not give it a second thought. i remember when my brother in law traded his 29 fever in on his 35 executioner, his old boat was brought in at 4:00 on a friday and was on the front line Saturday at 8:00 AM. I think they take for granted that some of there clients may be dishonest even though they are repeat customers.

At any rate, my friend has a meeting with the owner of the marina today, and I will pass along how things work out. At last check, my friend had not decided if he even still wanted the boat anymore as he feels deceived.

thanks again guys for all the input.

Matt Burns

I agree.
I might add I got a customer that bought a new boat only owner.The scan said it over 100 more hrs than the meters.

BTW on the warranty issue the boat at resale still has those hrs

thank you. my end result.