What's more Safe, V bottom or Cat??
 

I'v heard a lot about V Bottoms hooking and wiping out, but havn't heard much about that happening with cats.

There are fewer cats, that's why.....both types crash.

whos driving?

Canopy is the safest way to go, cat, bat or Vee.

www.reindlpowerboats.com

I agree Chris.

Non-step V is the safest. Then I would say toss up between step bottom Vs and Cats. I think you see a lot of cats going over cause they are running much much faster then the Vs on average. Although I have been over in a cat going just about a 100mph in calm water.

Both are prone to tripping waves and stabbing the bow, if you are driving beyond what the boat is capable of handling. Kevin Brown lost his life in the late 80's racing a 32' Skater without canopies, tripped a wave stabbed the next wave. I have also witnessed, first hand, in the early eighties a 27' Signature (straight vee) barrel roll coming around a turn in a race at Barnegat Bay, NJ - the driver was killed in that incident as well. I guess I still have directly answered your question, but it all boils down - driver, conditions od the water, and speed (common sense ****!)

I'm suprised to hear about blow-overs. I often wonder how these big Skaters like My Way and Jet Set hit those speeds without any close calls. I guess a wind speed meter would be handy.

That was Pat Patel and Doug Lewis that blew one over a few years ago while testing in the bay.

They had the indicator for the tunnel tab backwards. He thought he was bringing the tab up but instead it was going down and packing more and more air. I guess there is a limit....and they found it.

Old School Kevin Brown lost his life in a 32 skater WITH canopies. His canopy came off in the impact when his boat stuffed. I believe the canopy caused most of his injury.







:(

so i think it doesnt make any difference if i have canopys or not running 140 plus in my 32 skater AGITATOR. :crazy:

Merlin540
You would be much safer with canopies if........ you are belted in, other wise the canopie just helps keep all your broken parts in one place.

Here is Kevin Brown's 32 Skater running under the new name of Relentless..and yes, this photo was taken a few weeks ago in Atlantic City NJ.

The boat ran without canopies for years. They just added the canopies and 5 point harnesses prior to this race. Coincidence??????

Not that you have bought into Steve's advertising campaign or anything:rolleyes:

Did you ever think your argument about cats going over could be the same for step'd bottom V's:eek: :rolleyes:

Ron Is that the same boat that was dark blue with orange srtipes and named Team Skater? That was the boat Kevin Brown crashed in Atlantic City. I watched them pull it out of the water and one canopie was missing. I think Ocean Outboard ran a sister boat that looked the same but was outboard powered.

This is a debate that has been going on since....well since forever!;) Ask 100 people and get 100 different answers. It is all a matter of interpretation and personal philosophy. I have mine as do others. The biggest factors of all that have equal bearing whether running a cat or vee have already been mentioned but surely warrant repeating. Whether you are running a cat or a vee you should always learn the boat first at low speeds. Learn what it will do in as many different scenarios as possible. NEVER DRINK AND RUN YOUR BOAT! As tempting as it may be, never exceed the boats or your limitations. Granted unforseen circumstances rise in fractions of a second, but do your best to not run harder than conditions permit. If all systems are working properly and nothing breaks, many accidents can be prevented by the operator not exceeding his or her limitations. Each type of boat, vee or cat, stepped or non, will have tendencies to act differently in various water conditions.

This board always proves the point that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

Let me try to unravel this mess.....................

1. Having built, raced and pleasure boated both for years............GOOD Cats are safer than GOOD Vees..... AT THE SAME SPEED!!!!!!! A cat at 90 is going to be more stable, predictable, and controllable than a vee....all things considered. There are of course crappy cat designs and crappy vee designs that may impact this but overall the fact remains. To equate stepped vees with cats is ludicrous.......

2. Canopies (mounted according to Lavin standards) are, indeed, life savers......when mounted correctly. Kevin Brown's canopy was not affixed using Lavin standards..... (developed later) and , unfortunately came off in a barrel roll....hitting him and causing fatal injuries. Canopies mounted according to Lavin standards require additional reinforcement creating deflection and protection for the 5 point harnessed driver. The driver is also afforded cockpit lighting (for sudden upside down conditions that create intense darkness when compared to daylight), Oxygen (either full time or portable), Capsule training (to avert the natural disorientation and confusion in a traumatic event), Special life vests ( To avoid excessive buoyancy in a tight cockpit) , etc, etc.........

"Canopies", of and by themselves, are like carburetors....they don't function alone, but rather, as part of an overall "system" with STRICT application requirements...and....... there are good canopies(generally the most costly) and bad canopies (generally "cheaper").

Since the safety topic is so vital..... I strongly suggest that you do your homework, read the Lavin guidelines and avoid making decisions based on snippets of information and mis-information from bar talk, websites or general B.S. sessions......................

T2x

Ron, who rigged the boat Doug and Patel crashed? Was it Skater?

T2X My point is, a canopie boat for pleasure is no better then a non canopie boat due to the fact most people would not use a 5 point harness in a pleasure situation. So yes I agree with you. Even though I own a full canopie pleasure boat.
In a full race boat with all the proper gear there can be no question as it has been proven time and time again

The sister boat "Team Skater" was also run out of Michigan and not Ocean Outboard. Tony C may have throttled it at one time, but I don't think so.

Ocean Outboard (Tony Caligure) ran a white 32 Skater called....... Ocean Outboard.

T2x

I don't see why a Pleasure/Poker runner would not use a 5 point harness. I used one in my Ferrari Boxer on public streets................................ and a boat fast enough to merit canopies....should have the whole enchilada. In fact a canopied boat without a full integrated system is MORE dangerous than a non canopied boat in terms of trapping occupants, and uninformed "rescuers", etc......... If you barrel roll inside a canopied boat with no belts, lighting, nor oxygen...... God help you.

T2x

T2X,

Well put. Everyone should read a copy of the Lavin Guidelines before they rig their boat... or make sure those rigging it are complying with the guidelines.

Chris

T2X,
After Kevin Brown's death, I was told that it resulted from water entering from the back of the canopies, which were open, as the result of a spin.

I recall that most, if not all, cat cockpits were open everywhere except the canopies themselves.

A lot like the "pleasure" canopies we see today.

In any case, not a "Lavin" installation by modern standards.

Or find someone that's been over a few times to rig it:D

Cat-can-do blew over during a kilo run a few years ago I think at the race at Fountain's factory.

We were IMHO the first Open Class Boat with Canopies and went over hard out front in the WC in Key West 1987 we raced the boat again two days later..Building a Tough Boat is one thing but keeping everyone alive quite another;

Without that Canopied system (a lot of time was spent on it) everything would have been much different that Day..and the Cockpit protection in the Jaguars has always been first class..I guess there is nothing like a fullscale test so to speak..

Steve-
Was the Jag built to Lavin guidelines (or more)? Was the hull heavy? When did you stop doing the layups for Jag?
John

Tony C was driving the outboard sister ship in Atlantic City the day Kevin Brown crashed, the outboard boat also sustained damage I guess it was very rough.
T2X I have a hard time getting my passengers in inflateible jackets for a poker run, plus a 5 point harrness would chafe the girls at the bikini line. So I just run easy.
I have studied the Lavin guidelines, very well thought out and complete. I do wonder how many boats racing today would meet those guidelines?

Nope........ The boat straightaway barrel rolled in rollers off AC.....side ways water dislodged the driver's side canopy and forced it against his head and upper torso..........We were flying just behind it at the time.......With Kevin's father on board with us in Tango Yankee (our helicopter). Very tough moment.........

T2x

But chafing beats Intensive Care............. any day.
Be very careful.

T2x

Dueclaws

This one was built before the Lavin guidelines. In those days Ron Jones Of hydroplane fame handled the F-16 canopies That Hull +Deck was from our Old Airex Days long before the Core-Cell that we use now was developed by the same person we bought Airex from. Mr. Tom Johansson my Mentor

The philosophy was very simple you build an unbreakable boat from unbreakable material...Like build the top side strong enough to be a bottom
Easy to say but there are a whole host of “Good Shop Practices” and support from the Resin and Mekp supplier Laboratory’s Back in those days needed to make all this work.

All up Bagging was the rule of the day...We even had a mirror platform/Table in the back where the Bulkheads and other flat work were processed. It was a conservative build though a Lot of Glass both S and E were Bagged in along with Kevlar and Carbon fiber. . Jack came up with a real good Idea on the Canopies and mounting them I supplied a super strong base for them to be mounted on and it obviously worked.. Hell He Field tested it.. We sold like 7 Boats from that event alone..

The Boat had rails in the engine Bay where we had three driveline possessions 2'-3’4’ and the driveshafts

There was not a piece of wood in that entire Shop My Brothers and Jack Clark himself was the Crew. A lot of real good memories there... I left there now a True believer in Catamarans and did Contract Boat/Mold building eventually Building my Cheetahs the stint in the middle-East and so forth.

Steve-
What was the last year that you did layup at Jacks? Who did the work after you left? I know Rich said you were great!

Hey Steve I remember a bunch of late nights in that shop......................... Mike

Mike how are you?
Those days were a lot of fun That paint work sure made the Boat hell even now days;still looks cool ,Hey I saw that last Boat you did for Danny with the Tasmanian Devil with the Pearl fades way Cool Ole Boy!
as Usual a super job.. looking at the photo I see the Solar chargers on the deck I forgot about them.