The ONLY thing I can't grasp, is why go 140+ in a pleasure Vee? When you have to spend $200+ for engines that have to be freshened every 25 hours or so, have crash boxes, no cockpit, all so that you can say your Vee is capable of 140+? I don't care what anyone says, thats not a comfortable or "pleasure" 140 either.

You end up with a million dollar Vee hull. If your going to spend a million or 6, 7, $800,000, why not throw the 1400-1500 hp into a 40-46ft cat and laugh your ass off at the guy in the vee as you blow by him at 160-170+ with throttle left?

1000 Islands, what are you talking about? I left you a voicemail at work, sent you a PM here and responded to you on a thread about the poker run. When I didn't hear back from you I figured something came up. Oh well, bad communications I guess.

I am not going to London or Miami for the time being. Still have some unfinished work to do here.

Never got the VM here! WTF?:hothead: :mad: Yours is not the first either. I do not remember the PM and never saw the reply. What's up with that? I gues I AM deaf, dumb, blind and stupid!:eek: I spoke to our buddy from the "parking garage" in the 1000 Islands and due to that conversation I may be in NYC shortly. I will let you know when I hear more. For the time being it is TOP SECRET per his request!

Shane:

Why do I think I'm listening in on priviledged patient/doctor communications when I read some of your threads?

Take two Prozacs and call me in the morning.

T2x:p :p

Exactly Trout.

good point cigracer, I guess it comes down to personal preference. Some people just like V-hulls over tunnels. I also think there is a big misconception about tunnels and their riding characteristics in rough water.

Let me know Shane. I'd be interested in what our friend had to say.

Ok.......let me preface my comments by saying the following before someone else brings it up:

1) I have owned an Outerlimits
2) I have been out in over a dozen Outerlimits and 1/2 dozen Nor-Techs
3) I sell Nor-Techs
4) Outerlimits and Nor-Tech are both sponsors of NJPPC (which I am the President of)

Both boats are without a doubt 2 of the finest V-Bottoms made today. I although believe that their consumers are quite different. (taking a broad stroke look at this - majority of their owners NOT ALL)

1). The Outerlimits consumer is a consumer that wants to be part of an elite group of owners. They want the best of the best and they have the urge to be the fastest on the water. The paint on most of the Outerlimit boats is very radical.

2) The Nor-Tech V-Hull consumer is a consumer that also wants the best of the best. The Nor-Tech V-Hull consumer is usually more concerned about crusing comfort and amenities (wet bar in the cockpits, diesel power, etc..). Nor-Tech also builds V-Hulls with big power that will go in excess of 100mph.
The Nor-Tech Cat consumer is more focused on speed like the Outerlimits customer)

Outerlimits and Nor-Tech consider each other their primary competitors (based on conversations I have had with both).

No matter which boat you choose, Outerlimits or Nor-Tech...they are both awesome boats. The only time a boat is not a good boat is if it does not meet the owner's needs in regard to what they want to do with the boat.

Do most of the Outerlimits and Nortechs with the big power still use crash boxes? I wasn't sure if something newer had been invented. That has definately got to make docking a nerve racking experience in a million dollar boat. Also, I have never been on a cat (but passed by plenty). How do they handle big waves say verse a v hull of the same length? Are they even better in rough water? I guess I've always wondered with the hulls basically creating lift if that lift makes them more (or less) stable.

Troutly,
Thanks for the pics. I had a great (although limited) time with you guys. I'm looking forward to next year.

As for the OL vs NT saga, I think we both build great boats. They have their thing we have ours. The advantage here is that you have two dedicated builders committed to excelence and aren't satisfied with "status quo". Now you have the luxury of choice.
So if your in this market give us both a fair shake and then you can make the best decision for your boating lifestyle.
Terry Sobo

Spoken as a true gentlemen, well put...:cool:

(Sorry if this is a double post - my computer- or operator error - occasionally won't let my previous post show up)

So on the topic of these rocket ships....how in hell do you guys lucky enought to drive them regularly not run over more, or do you? It is tricky enough to see lobster pots, oyster bed stakes, etc. etc. at 65-70mph much less 150 mph and faster. I've also come across some kayaks waaaay off shore that can hide behind decent sized waves pretty well. Or perhaps some HUUUGE barge or cruiser wake that has to launch even a 40 foot boat pretty well. Are these something you get used to and your reflexes just adjust to? It seems like you would be over something before you realized it.

P.S. - I'd love a ride if anyone wants to show me :D

Hey Scott
 

Maybe my DOG will catch you boat! Another way of thinking of the "DOG CATCHER"!! Keep you tail down

Controversy
 

Please do not delete this post! It would seem that Nortech and Outerlimits compete for a very small customer base. When a manufacture does a very poor job, word travels fast. When you sell a brand new boat to a customer you should care how you and your product are perceived. My friends recently took delivery of a 2003 36 Nortech Cat, a 2003 50 Nortech V, another 50 Nortech V being currently built, and a new 37 Quad Step Outerlimits with 675 Eckerts.

For the record...... I announced races from 1981-2001...and I NEVER said that. The whole concept of "Cat water"...and "vee bottom water" made me want to barf.

Cats became dominant in most conditions by the mid 80's......... and vee classes were separated as a result. To this day you will not see a vee race a cat of similar size with the same power in any water conditions on any race course. Vees outsell cats and therefore have the benefit of more grass roots fans and larger marketing budgets. In addition they are more apt to offer "potty points" and sleeping accomodations, so the nod goes to them as a family boat..... Unfortunately the uninformed have fallen for the misinformation regarding vee performance prevalent in today's advertizing. (Powerboat tests a 2000 hp 36 vee in the same issue as a twin outboard 32' cat and calls it "War of the 100 mph club" or some nonsense......check who has the largest advertizing dollars in the mag before reading)

Bottom line:
Well designed cats are 30% .......That's THIRTY PERCENT faster than a comparable vee of the same length and power. This translates to 30% more fuel economy.....30% faster to your destination...30% less time in sloppy water....etc etc. In addition they frequently fly over mixed chops that vee bottoms ricochet through......... and cats don't pound the occupants senseless in the process.

About the best you can say in a true comparison is that one vee is 28% less efficient than a (good) cat , while another might be 35%.

T2x

Certainly not...and I never said that....but I also never echoed the "cat water" babble that the other guys used as filler when in fact they had nothing else to say.

As far as personal preferences vee versus cat......you are correct......but the speed and fuel economy numbers are simply factual....and rarely, if ever, presented to the public. Certainly not by Vee bottom manufacturers....nor the media( print or electronic) that "enjoys" their sponsorship

T2x

My buddy has a 42' OL with Twin 1000's and he is getting 109 out of it. I would find it hard to believe that with 900's it went 115?

I have heard excellent things about both boats, it is a matter of preference and what your needs are.

Yeah, my buddies old 37 w/900's was getting 110. No way a 42 w/900's can get 115.

what size does this go into effest at, I know smaller (like 21-24) cats can't handle rearly as rough water as a comperable vee. Also in big water isn't there a safety factor to be considered, A cat may handle the waves smoother than a vee but I'd rather get beat up than blow over. Please shed some light on this for me. Thanks,
Martin.

That depends on what kind of 21-24 tunnel. Typical cats in that size range have a lot lower freeboard than V's. But not the case in the old 24 Skaters, I would much prefer that over a V in that class. I have not heard of many Pleasure Cats blowing over. This is a huge misconception about cats.

I think there were only two offshore cats to ever blow over. Pat Patel and Doug Lewis when they had problems with an upside down tunnel tab and Cat Can Do at the Kilos in NC.

A. You are correct to the best of knowledge....for whatever that's worth.:p :crazy:

B. This is a question, whose answer is dependent upon a multitude of factors. Let me explain. First, there are "True Cats" like a Skater, Motion, Spectre etc. Then there are Modified Cats like the smaller American Offshore, Carerra, smaller Eliminators etc. These "Modified" cats usually have a "center pod" down the middle of the tunnel that severely detracts from their rough water capabilities. Understand however, that this center pod usually makes for a somewhat better ride in calm water vs. a true cat, absent of a tunnel tab. This phenominon is very easily recognized allthe way down into the 21 Skater, the 24 Skater, 25 Motion on up. These true cats will outperform a vee of comparable size in rough conditions. It is my position, as well as many others who know how to properly set up and run these boats, that these true cats will handle any water condition as well or better than most vee bottoms up to around 30 to 31 feet. Some of this is obviously a factor of what vee bottom it is etc. However, it is a fairly good rule of thumb that all things being equal the cat will handle the rough water better with a comtetant operator(s) at the controls. As you climb in length (i.e. larger cats vs. larger vees) the analogy only becomes MORE PREVALENT! This does NOT make a cat a better boat, or anything like that. I am simply stating that a true cat that is built by one of the top builders (i.e. Skater, Motion, Nor-Tech, Spectre, MTI et. al) will out handle, out ride and out perform a vee of substantially larger size. A really good case in point would be a 28, 32 or 36 Skater, a 30 Shadow (probably one of the BEST rough water boats for its size, although it wouldn't turn for SH!T, and yes I raced one and won with it as well). The 36 Nor-Tech is another excellent example of how a cat will handle the rough stuff far better than a significantly larger vee.

Again, this is not to demean or take away from what vees offer and can do. There are many attributes found on a vee that are not found on cats, i.e. heads, cabins, galleys, etc etc etc.

Remember there are different kinds of cats..... a 24 Skater will hold its own with any 24' vee in even moderate ocean conditions...and in fact they raced many years offshore. There was a period when 24 Skaters competed heads up with a 33 Sutphen ( Harrah's) in the same class for some bizarre "level playing field" reason.....and in that case (of course) the vee had the upper hand in rough seas...but at the very least the 24's put up somewhat of a fight. On the other hand there are "west coast" cats that can't handle a mild chop......

The blowover scenario is nonsense......... and happens very rarely, if at all. Spin outs and barrel rolls do happen...and, I submit, more often with step bottom vees....then cats.

I repeat........ in the long run a cat will be faster, more economical, and more stable than a vee of comparable size....and power.

T2x

\

Actually it does............... at least a better PERFORMING boat.

T2x

30 Shadows turned very well actually....But not with an idiotic third engine in the tunnel wash.

T2x

Yeah.......what about 'em? They are both good examples of modern day step hull design( 1930's sea plane sponsons) with current state of the art materials and craftmanship........

Nortech just seems to have made the jump to catamaran technology quicker.:p

T2x

Uhhhh, yup, we had that third engine! Sorry, Rich.:o I LOVED that thing in the rough! Boy it would eat it up! I guess that third engine was the reason it was so HARD to turn the wheel. Why did it tend to roll onto its outside sponson so frequently though? I thought it was because the gunwales made a VERY sharp edge at the chine, where a Skater has sort of a "roll" to it.:confused: Did that third engine actually have something to do with it?

The third engine had EVERYTHING to do with it...the twin engined Shadows leaned inward during turns...and the boat was never designed for a center engine. After Black Duck campaigned so successfully, Skater made a wider lower profile that was more "triple friendly".

T2x

Remember the "majority" voted for Clinton.

T2x:p

t2x,

i beg to differ on the third engine theory and i know your involvement with the boat completely, but my twin engined 30 shadow definitely leaned on the outside sponson in the turns...it's one of the main reasons i sold the boat, because it made me uneasy...which could have also been caused by my lack of experience in a catamaran.

my other reasons for selling the boat included:

severely underpowered with twin 2.4 Bridgeports...barely ran 75 mph which could have something to do with the "roll"

bought the 28 Cigarette :)

I was under the same misconception about small cats as you until T2x took me for a spin in his 28 Skater and I drove Shane's 24 Skater in some mixed water. Well, I gotta say that the 24 Skater passed several larger vees and we were comfortable (read: no pounding) as we flew across the waves. It was unreal. I completely changed my opinion of cats.

Now, that is not to say that everyone should go out and trade-in their vees on cats. Anyone considering a cat needs to learn to drive and throttle all over again. It's a different world and I've only begun to understand (faintly I might add) what the differences are. Without taking the time to learn what to do and what NOT to do, getting into a 100mph+ cat from a vee of any speed will be unwise. But, with proper instruction on how to run a cat, it's a whole new world.

Vees and cats are like two different flavors of ice cream. Whichever one tastes best to you, is the one to go with. But, cats should not be avoided due to misperceptions because you'll miss out on some real fun.

Thank you for clarifying this for me, the only reason I alsays thought that about small cats is because I ride on a few 21' and 24 skaters and sometimes coming off a wake or chop at high speeds(80+) it felt like the bow was starting to come up and kept coming up until the driver let out of it, Maybe I was just paranoid because I'm used to driving a vee that just bounces around off the waves.

With all due respect, maybe the people operating them are not experienced or are not aware of the proper way to run them. Reason being, a cat such as a Skater should fly dead level when trimmed, driven and throttled correctly. Ask Miller, we got some BIG air and we ALWAYS flew FLAT as a pancake. He picked up teh driving thing VERY QUICKLY I might add.

Actually, I was more worried about us stuffing than blowing over. I thought that we might be running a bit bow heavy as Shane and I are both BIG GUYS, but my diet paid off and we didn't shift the center of gravity forward as I had feared! :eek: :D

Seriously, there were a few moments were we got some height between our props and the wave tops. It is a weird feeling but I got used to it quickly and really enjoyed it. At first the sensation is akin to flying but we always flew very level and reentered smoothly. I braced myself a couple of times after a few seconds of duration in the air only to land smoothly and with no fanfare. It was amazing.

If a Skater is running bow-high, then there is a problem. It should stay flat at all times and both leave and reenter the water without any jarring.

How old was it? We found that the balsa on some boats absorbed water ...thereby shifting the c/g forward...and making it roll outboard in turns. In addition if you turned them too slowly...they would, at times, roll out. However, in good trim and balanced right...they leaned into turns....with two engines.

I do remember having vee bottom guys out for test rides cringing that the banking didn't "feel" right in a turn..... Since the vees banked as much as 30 degrees inward and the Shadow ran flat to 1 to 2 degrees, the comparative sensations probably seemed like an outward roll.... I know even I felt nervous whenever I drove a triple engine version. On the other hand I clearly remember races where I could have reached out and touched every turn buoy....in every turn...at full throttle.

T2x

The point here I think is how many 21 to 24 vees would be going 80 mph in a chop or over the same wakes.....in the first place.....?

There is no doubt that cats get into "situations" at much higher speeds than vees..... because they are usually going at a much higher speed to begin with.

T2x

That's I would recommend anyone who steps into a cat after only have driven vees, should get some instruction and spend time learning the differences in how the hulls handle. Since things happen quickly when you're going 100mph+, you don't have time to experiment. You need to know what is happening, why and how to deal with it.

it was joey detore old boat...number 2 out of the mold, right?

quite possible that it was water logged as it sat for anumber of years befre i got it...

Just once, You said ," the boat felt like it was going over untill the driver let off " ? That means it was thrust from the prop and trimmed wrong holding it up . It was not the air in the tunnel pushing it up or it would not have come down when he let off.

I drove a 30' Cobra cat with 2.5's once . I won't name names but lets say the guy that sat next to me in this "brand new boat" and set the trim knows cobras better then anybody ....... Well it was trimmed up too high . I went over a real big roller in smooth water and launched it real high . When It came down I throttled it hard and stood it up at about a 45degree angel or more !:D I let off and it came down and I gunned it and stood it up again and was able to hold it up for a good distance ! This was on perfectly flat water ,after the wake . no one in the boat thought it was as cool as I did !:D
My point is that at 80+ mph , it did not blow over . Not to say it couldn't have ........ But for my luck that day it didn't . I would like to have seen how it would fly if it was trimmed right .


Sooooo , What about those Nortechs !;)