damdonzi, honestly i would be much more worried about the extra weight you're about to put at the back of that little cig.

Why? The Yanmar is roughly the same weight as an HP 500, and the ASD8 is roughly the same weight as a Bravo One. Am I missing something? Little Cig???

super termoli...
 

"and cigwillie, Trimax is widely used by the special ops military including the Navy Seals on their fast hit-and-run and interceptor vessels and they sure do not want to be seen on any radar screens. the tragedy of trimax is the fact that manufacturers were not really receptive to it because of the re-tooling costs so it has very much become a professional bit of equipment for military, coast guard, police, customs, special forces..."

Roger that. Thx.

damdonzi,
go to arnesons website, there is a guy with a 22 Donzi classic with an arneson. Its under the cool boats section.

damdonzi, i think you will find that an arneson ASD8 is heavier than a Bravo. then, you will also need a trannie which will also be heavier. i truly believe that you'll be adding some weight in the back... i may be wrong though... i was wrong once before...

Love that european wit. :D:D

Re: Arneson on V Bottoms
 

Hunter I am assuming that you are asking about your boat. I am also assuming that it is Bill Dahls black 39 Sutphen. I personally havent ran the 39 with arnesons but I have run the 30 with arnesons. For every pro there's a con.

Super Termoli has certainly pointed all the pros out. Now this from my past experience only the cons that I have encountered are as follows.

1) Maneuverability around the dock was reduced noticably but you can deal with it.

2) The running attitude of the boat cant be changed as significantly as it can with a sterndrive but if you set it up properly you can fix that also. The rocker plates are designed to help this.

3) If you are not running a swim step and you use the boat for recreation purposes such as swimming you have a tremendous amount of hardware exposed at the back. Could be dangerous especially with kids.

All that being said the one pro and I believe it is the most important one is that it throws one hell of a rooster tail and thats just cool.
You gotta look cool.:cool: :cool:

All that being said would I run them absolutely. And will be experimenting with them in the very near future.

Sean Stinson

Here is the Pulse Drive addressing the pleasure/safety factor.

Photo of OSO member "Imongo" in the Virgin Islands.

This shot was taken at low speed approx 50 mph
when speed is increased the rooster lays much flatter.
as seen in the previous post above .
I have indexed the drives at centerline to the flat running surface of the stern it operates at its best approx 2 inches above that centerline.
The boat likes a little tab.
As far as any High speed vessel you would never
want to make any Quick moves at these speeds.
However the boat is very stable conditions permitting.
There is alot of wetted surface still in contact with the water.
Here is a Quote on The article in the Powerboat Mag issue of March 1985 featuring the Hustler.

"Hustler Has just written a new chapter in the handbook of performance boating As far as we know
Hustler is the first manufactuer that has specifically desighned and fine tuned a bottom to take maxiimum advantage of surface drives. Instead of trying to lift the nose and balance a four ton boat on a precarious, constantly shifting platform,The company has altered
the transom angle and modified the strakes on its 32 footer to lift the entire boat at high speed. Consequently the package is very buoyant, yet approx.
20 feet of wetted surface at 100mph. Hustler isn't willing to divulge all of its desighn secrets, but the company freely admits that it modified the transom angle so the surface drives could be mounted further down fo a improved angle of attack. Also the bottom strakes have been widened and exstend back to within six feet of the transom. The company has also scribed a twelve inch notch in the transom once again to aid in water flow coming back to the surface props. The end result is speed and handling like we never experienced in a v before."

Super Termoli notice why they notched the transom.

My times have changed since that article was written.
By Norm Teague.

Here in New England we see are share of Rollers.
Re entry takes some getting used to . Wants to stuff.
The propellers spin inward and are 18 inches apart.
The wheels in this picture are 17x28 4 blade rollers.
with a ssm # 3 19 spline.

Propellers are of course more expensive. But with the adapters that are available at Arneson-Indutries.com
and a little bit of used shopping they are still in reach.

The poor reversing is mainly because the water hits
the transom.

One thing for Sure
You dont need Radar to see this boat.

What do you all think of a gladiator with ads-6's and 500 efi's. Do you think this would be a good application? I di not want anything to break! Most of my friends have or know someone who has broken bravos this year including myself. I would step up the engines down the road.

I think we pretty much covered the topic. As caveman points out and as i have previously stated, surface drives can be adapted to a boat designed for sterndrives. If the boat already has sterndrives and everything has been built around them, it's a more difficult process which involves some time and financial investment. Like in Too Old's case, it's probably better to go for Speedmasters in this case. It's a good, solid drive and looks cool. Plus it also has a rooster tail... If on the other hand you're ordering a new boat, it's pretty easy for a manufacturer to build a surface drive boat without changing anything to the initial design. It should not cost you much more than sterndrives and I would strongly suggest you inquire about that possibility when ordering. Performance will be improved and reliability will be in another league. Still, the best option is when a manufacturer adapts its product to suit perfectly surface drives, like Hustler did with the 32. This will allow you to take full advantage of this technology and greatly reduce any drawbacks you may experience, like a loose transom for instance. Which I guess answers your question Trader1. Your Cig idea sounds like a good one because you really have very little choice. If you stick with sterndrives, you either have to go for Bravos and hope for the best and then shell out for 6s when you step up the motors or get the boat with 6s straight away. The problem is the fact that 500s with 6s is not such a hot idea because a 6 takes a bunch of HP to move and you need every single one of those when you have stock motors. So with your plan in mind and sterndrives, you initially have to choose between performance and reliability. An Arneson drive would allow you to enjoy maximum performance and maximum reliability with your original stock motors and would also allow you to pump the motors up without the hassle and expense of changing the drives while still enjoying max performance and reliability. I say go for it. Plus you can cover the Arnesons with a huge platform which is nice for swimming and claim that your 36 is infact a custom 42 Tiger...

Surface drives throw a great rooster tail and look really cool, but you can get the same tail with outdrives. We are running Sportmasters and the boat throws a natural rooster tail regardless of trim. Granted, the X dimension is pretty high (could actually be a little higher), but it stills planes easily and handles really well. Of course, with outdrives you don't get that bad a** look associated with the surface drives.

Anyhow, with a good rooster tail people can certainly see you coming from a long distance. They see white water long before the boat appears! Pretty cool.

:cool:

Has anybody else tried Weismann drives? This is the pair on the Lucas Oil Super V. They appear to have a transom assembly like a regular outdrive, but the function of a surface drive. These may be an option for a conversion. Any ideas?

Another angle.

Weismann Drives

What about Sage drives? I know that Pat Patel had a pleasure 46 Sakter with Sage drives and Torque V-12's...I saw DARRENUS1's pictures of it at Skaterfest, and never saw it again.
I also never heard anything about Sage drives again.
What happened to that boat? Does it still have those drives? Someone a while back mentioned that the Torques were swapped out for Sterlings.

Honestly, there are so many SD systems out there that I can't really remember which ones are which. When I see one, I can recognize it and say what it does but just by the name, it gets more difficult. As far as Weismann goes, I do not see any advantages over a #6 drive. I know they claim it's a true surface drive but it's not. I have not seen them really beat up the #6 on the racecourse either. They did have a moment of glory though. Remember when Ettore boat stuffed it and became an U-boat for a while. Those photos were cool and it had Weismann drives. I am sure it's a good drive but it's as much of a step forward from a #6 as a BMax is from a Bravo XR. As for Sage, is that the one with a variable X-dimension? If so, that sounds like a good idea to squeeze that last drop of speed out of the boat on a straight course but still make it handle and accelerate right in the twisty stuff. All this sounds quite fragile though. I believe Scism and MTI were going to use this but I hear they are now trying out BPM drives which have proven themselves in Class 1 in Europe. Pity about Torques though. Those guys had the right ideas: "a clean sheet design". I hope Callan and d'Annibale do something with the tooling and stop using those pre-historic V8 blocks...

Yes, the Sage is the one with the variable X. Here's a link to pictures I was talking about. (I didn't want to rob Darren's pictures to post here.)

http://www.darrensoffshorephotos.hom...aterfest2.html

That looks like somebody took a sterndrive rather than a surface drive and made its X dimension variable. What I'm trying to say is that this Sage drive is clearly inspired by the #6. I'm sorry but it all looks very fragile. I bet I could break it in a day. Awesome boat, great racers but those drives have a "DIY" look about them. What is interesting is that with this drive, we have the whole spectrum covered. First we have Trimax which is not trimmable nor steerable. Just a fixed shaft, thus requiring rudders for steering. Then we have the BPM drive which is not steerable and thus requires rudders but is (slightly) trimmable. Then we have Arnesons and the likes of SDS drives which are trimmable and steerable. And finally we have the Sage drive which is trimmable, steerable and with a variable X dimension, in other words it moves all over the place. No prizes for guessing which is the most reliable. Plus, the Trimax can be set at a really shallow angle (2°) because certain design characteristics allow it to keep good handling characteristics even at this angle (cavitation control). So you can be just as fast if not faster than others while keeping it all supremely reliable. It simply NEVER broke in racing and it is fast. Look at Tommy Bahama. As far as I'm concerned, it's really the best surface drive system. I am expecting to be shot down in flames for saying this but I'll leave it at that...

And before we start a controversy and hurt Mr. Weismann's feelings, it must be said that respect is due to anybody who conceives a drive which can handle the power of today's raceboats and run with the best. I imagine this drive was conceived with financial resources far inferior to those of Mercury Racing so considerable talent and ingenuity had to be deployed to take it to that level. My criticism concerns the originality of its concept. It's maybe an evolution of what already exists but not a revolution. When Howard Arneson designed his drive or when Fabio Buzzi decided to rethink it all, we're talking about revolutionary ideas...

This has been a very interesting thread - I'm learning alot. Never realized all that about aeriating the props that way. Has that ever been applied to Bravo Drives? Would it do any benefit to have something switchable to add air? BTW, I'm claiming a portion of the patent if it ever came about.HEHE.
Bouy

It's been tried on a #6. Have you ever seen black rubber tubes sticking from the cav plates on #6s? It usually shows up on race boats or real sharp poker run gear. It's not switchable but it allows the prop to suck some air when accelerating from standstill. It improves acceleration, especially on very fast (not quick) stuff with very tall gearing. It looks crap though.

Very infomative thread.

For the record super termoli ( and I'm sure that others are wondering this also ), you have no association with Trimax whatsoever, correct ? I am asking innocently, with no malice intended at all.

You have been a wealth of information on this topic, and your belief in Trimax SD's is very clear. Just want to know that you are a true user, and not a partner / investor / shareholder ;)

Re: Re: Arneson on V Bottoms
 

I'm thinking so too.

Our products speak for themselves. The dropboxes that are in Tommy Bahama are ours.

People do not pay attention to what they cannot see. That is why we make drives as well. We did the drysump. There was so much left to do in the #6 we made our own.

As for our drives we have two types here is the difference.

Propshaft above the suface (WSD) as in Lucas oil / Ettore / Ragamuffin SD stands for surface drive not shaft drive. The design is an evolution of the Kaama drive that my father designed. Built for racing. Banned.

Propshaft subsurface or sufacing (WMD) designed for high torque high hp gas- diesel- turbine stern drive. New design. Built for race/pleasure.

Shaft drive. In certain designs they are fine. Stern drives for manuverability.

As far as vee bottoms with shaft drives.
non step - aft cg - and high rake props for bow lift. You need artificial lift because of the negative angle of attack of the shaft. Buzzi ran antistuff planes on the front for lift. The best race boats with shaft drives ran the fuel in the stand off box after the transom. If you re adjust the shaft angle you should remount the engine to straighten the driveline out otherwise the drive line will fail.

There is no perfect drive. Every system has plus and minuses. We do not make a shaft drive because there are two or more companies making them. It would waist our time to re-invent the shaft. We have more toys in store for our competition to ponder.

As for Ettore stuffing S$^% happens. I told Mike (Ettore owner) we would be on the cover. Nigel has not done that.

I have some great pics of Buzzi boats inverted. Does that mean the Trimax drive is to blame as well?

pat W

Jamie B, I really have no vested interest in ZF Trimax but people there including Buzzi are friends. But not more than some people from Mercury Europe for example. So I have no other reason for expressing my opinion than sharing my experiences and seeing what everybody else thinks. I build boats for special purposes like military, customs etc. so when we test our products we do not dial them in, we basically try to break them because we know that if we possibly can, guys who are going to be using them will do so three times faster and it will come back to us. At one point we understood that the commander of the boat we built will use it hard 100% of the time for no particular reason because a) the boat does not belong to him, b) he does not have to pay for repairs and c) because it's fun... And the only thing we have not broken is Trimax. I know it will never replace sterndrives because of the need to retool the entire transom part but it's indestructible. As for Weismann drives, I think my remarks have been verified. "There was so much left to do in the #6" means that it's an interpretation of that concept. Secondly, Buzzi's did not really use his anti-stuff fins for bow lift. He got tired of hitting docks and other boats with them and took them off to no effect on his boat's performance. He later designed a square bow end section like on the Sunseeker XS2000 which is intended to replace fins and prevent stuffing, but cannot provide any significant lift due to its design, thereby proving that lift was not the original intention. As for Ettore stuffing, I know enough to say that the incident had nothing to do with the drive system and I never said that. But everybody walked away, photos were awesome and they appeared in every mag even in Europe so it was effectively a moment of (unwanted) glory. Finally Pat W, your drives look cool: very post-modern, I mean if terminator had a boat it would probably have to have your drives on it. I never claimed it was a bad drive and that is verified by one fact: it was banned. Everything that was better than #6 was banned including Trimax. I'll leave it at that... but it's good to see people of your caliber sharing their opinion.

Thank you for clarifying super termoli ( Pat ? ).

"Hunter I am assuming that you are asking about your boat. I am also assuming that it is Bill Dahls black 39 Sutphen. I personally havent ran the 39 with arnesons but I have run the 30 with arnesons. For every pro there's a con."

Actually we have arnesons on our 39' express cat, but our 38 fountian has xr's with the built in steering. We have 572 blower motors that made 850hp at 5 lbs. My dad and I were talking about the surface drives on stepped bottom boats. He had a formula with kammas on it and did not liked the way it handled. If we blow up the drives I was thinking of doing the asd6's being they are better and I heard lots of good stuff about the stepped boats. On a cat I would not even hesitate to put on arnesons they are way way bad. Another way to swim around the drives is to put buckets over the props so as not to cut anyone. The info is great keep it coming.
Hunter

I've been running an ASD6 on my small block chevy 18 Donzi for several years. Run's faster and smoother then the outdrive.


http://www.arneson-industries.com/Ro...tes_Donzis.jpg


Check out the "Rocker" the rocker plates can add!!!

check this thing out. I can't remember the site I got it from, but it was on a turbine boat. It seems really simple and there are not too many moving parts.

these are the #6 with the black tube to get air to the prop.

.Here's a link to a Video.
http://www.donzi.net/cgi-bin/ultimat...=008222#000011

39 NAS-T, I would not have any second thoughts about fitting an Arneson to a Fountain stepped bottom. It's been done and it works. For example, that diesel Fountain with 6LY-STP Yanmars and Arnesons was a good and fast boat. However, 850hp is way over the rated allowance for an ASD6 so you may have to step up to the 8. I have to check this because I know Hustler used an ASD6 on their 388 with KE 675s without any problems or any concerns about reliability. And 675hp is still way over the prescribed limit. So I am not sure what's going on. Twin Disc must be very conservative with their ratings for obvious warranty reasons but how far can you push it without compromising reliability? Anybody? I believe an ASD 6 will still be more reliable with 850s than a Bravo XR though!

Super Termoli:

Thanks for sharing all this information.
I will like to add the Pulse Drive to the list of reliable drives. I have been researching drives that can handle the torque of diesel engines and the Pulse Drive was in my opinion the best for pleasure boating.
1) It has the swim platform covering the propellers for safety and to direct the water under the hull when in reverse ( a plus against the Anerson)
2) It is trimable so it will adapt to any weight changes and/or water conditions. ( a plus against the Trimax )

Dr. Santiago, I saw your Cig in the classifieds and was surprised to see it with a Pulse Drive. When did you fit it and how painful was the process? I think I saw your boat a while ago with yellow-painted sterndrives, right? Anyway, share your experience concerning this transition. If it was relatively easy, others may be tempted to do the same. And I believe Pulse is a great drive for pleasure purposes. It provides you with the convenience and safety of a swim platform and you do not have to build the entire boat around it like you do with Trimax. However, speaking from experience it is not as fast nor as solid as Trimax. It will break with a turned-up Seatek engine for example. But at this level of reliability, it becomes a point which will be of importance only to military people, not pleasure boaters. You do a lot of poker runs and boating in general and you seem to be pleased with it and that is proof enough. I would like to point out that Fabio Buzzi did design a drive system from which Trimax evolved and which strongly ressembles Pulse Drive. It was in 1975 and the first boat to receive it was his racing 3-point hydroplane called "Monster". It had a 2000cc BMW engine, followed by a 2500cc (153 cid) version. It won the Pavia-Venice river classic at an average speed of 79 mph in 1977. Here's an original drawing of it. I think it looks very similar in conception to Pulse Drive. Trimax and its latest version (known as G-drive internally) evolved from this concept and therefore undoubtedly is a "sharper" drive. But by getting "sharper" it may have become too extreme and difficult to handle for manufacturers and public. Maybe Pulse is the best compromise between longevity, performance, safety and user friendliness?

Then Fabio started playing with diesels and left rivers and lakes for seas and oceans. In other words, he went offshore. And he realized that with the torque produced by diesels and G-forces and shocks produced by heavy seas, his drive would not last. Stuff breaking, stuff leaking, he decided to make everything fixed and see what happens. This new drive was still adjustable but manually when the boat was out of the water. He decided that for racing and all other purposes, this possibility was enough. The problem was and still is, his only purpose was racing at the time of this design. It was the first true Trimax drive. The year was 1982...

I believe that the drive will last as long as you treat it well though. With the XR's we are very easy to get on plane and when we come out of the water we throttle back immediately. I think that ASD-8's are probably the way to go though, but you could make the ASD-6's last as long as you did not beat on them. Does anyone know what ASD-8's cost? The XR's are a decent drive though I think as far as merc goes though as long as you are not thrashing them.
Hunter

Super Termoli:

Are those CV joints on the "first trimax"?

vtec

39' NAS'T, I think you're absolutely right but the idea in this thread is to be able to forget about the drives and use them to a maximum. I know that caring for your drives is part of the culture nowadays given the fact that Bravos always needed to be used in a civilized manner but this puts a cap on the "fun factor". You want to be able to boat to you full pesonal potential and not be limited by your drives. Personally, just having drives constantly in the back of my mind would ruin it for me. So go for the 8s, bash it and thrash it, come back with a huge grin on your face and start over again the next day... And VTEC, yes CV joints involved in that one...

ASD6 Kit / Bravo™ to Arneson Conversion Kit

Anyone knows the costs of those kits please?

Anyone familiar with it's use?

I will call Arneson on Monday but would also appreciate input from users and dealers please Thank you.

http://www.arneson-industries.com/BtoAKit.jpg
http://www.arneson-industries.com/ASD6KitSide.JPG