The future of outdrives...
 

The diesel thread got me thinking..well I have been for a while. When is a real innovation going to be made in the outdrive and what is it's future?

As far as drives go I can't believe that a number 6 cost the same to produce as my ford 2004 f-250, I mean come on...

What the marine industry needs is some real healthy competition. Competition breads innovation. Look at the gap between the bravo and #6 drives. Consumers are screaming for something but because of a monopoly created by their dealer network and lack of competition we suffer with drives that explode. The price of a brand new standard bravo drive should be about $1000 as old as the technology is.

I mean what could Ford sell 1994 style f-250 pickups for today if they never made any advances with them and never retooled the line? Hell they would still be about $18,000 maybe less because the development cost was recovered a million times over.

Maybe congress needs some anti trust legislation against mercruiser. I mean are they really any different than Bill Gates and Microsoft? Look at the stink made over having to spin off the internet explorer or having to include Netscape on PC's.

We need a Linux version of outdrives. We need someone to go back to the drawing board and design a new drive. Something that has a transmission. Maybe something that doesn't have all 90 degree angles for the drive trane. What about shift-able transmissions similar to an automatic transmission on a car, or something akin to a variable pitch (constant speed) propeller on an airplane. Heck only your very basic planes use a fixed pitch, why isn't the same technology done with boats? I could see it as a real innovation coupled with diesel power and a variable (constant speed) prop.

Maybe I am just a layman and don't know what I am talking about but it just seems that our technology is stalled in the area of marine propulsion

I agree, it is sick how much a #6 cost. Please someone explain how it can cost as much as a new f350?

I understand there is a limited market for them. They don't sell a substantial amount so the price has to be higher, basic economics I understand. However, it seems that it is way overboard.

Your right Bongo, someone has to step up and design something as/almost as good for a lot less cash:confused:

The trouble is when the do devople somethign close, Like a Wiesman, The charge just a little less than a #6 because they sell even few than Merc does. And they can get it.

I would think the future would have a hydraulic system with all the technology available today.Look around and you see hyd. powered everything.
How about a crank mounted pump,hyd. lines and external transom hyd. prop motor on rails for an adj. x-dimension ?
Just thinking out loud again.:eureka:

Re: The future of outdrives...
 

Maybe arneson can force Merc to offer a Merc 496HO/ASD-6 package...
:drool: :drool: :drool:

The future of outdrives is somewhat here. Merc's new system DTS (Digital Throttle and Shift). No more control cables. Its wiring from the controls to the engine. Someday the wiring will be replaced w/ fiber optics.

A Bravo controlled by wires will be grenaded just as easily as Bravo run by cables, if you put 700 hp in front of it.

The problem is that there is no mass-market, readily available outdrive that will live behind 600-700 hp, unless you go to a #6, with all that entails. Unfortunately, it's a tune that has been played over and over again, and Merc has zero incentive to change. What are you going to do when you lunch that Bravo, buy a competitor? Oh, that's right, there isn't one.

The Arneson conversions are the way to go but are expensive. It has less moving parts. Also puts back about 15hp in the motor. Lots of guys are converting from Bravo to Arneson. By the way, wasn't impressed w/ Merc's DTS after I saw it in Merc school. Too much crap to go wrong.

As a small manufacturer I understand the cost of a #6. We build precision turning machines, among other products, that cost more than an average house in Cal. These things cost millions to develop. I would imagine they have millions in development costs in #6 drives too. Then the cost of manufacturing small production runs is staggering. I can't say that I would pay it but I don't think they are priced out of line, in fact, they are probably a steel at the price.

Never the less, I do wish someone would produce a cheaper system. If they where priced right the production numbers would go up thereby driving the costs even lower.

Bravos are just overpriced period. They build them by the truck load.

There are so many other engine options out there I can't believe that nobody has any competition for drives.
Another thing is the price of their engines. What's a 500efi go for 25k. That is insane when I could have an engine built for 10k buy a very reputable engine builder I know. I understand that they are all computerized and supposed to be bullet proof, but come on 15k more!

The entire marine industry is insane. Again, I understand the economics behind it and if you want to play you have to pay. However, Sometimes the prices of marine products as a whole are insane. Unfortunately, I don't think this will ever change. Why? Because of the simple economic theory of supply and demand. Why should they change? In their mind , there is no reason too change.

How much does a bravo to arneson conversion cost per drive, soup to nuts?

I know you guys are talking mostly high end outdrives but have you seen these guys ?

http://www.sterndrive.cc/

Its a start .........

There was a thread about this a short time ago. About $12,000 I think.

Yeah, I think the conversion is $12K-$15K when all is said and done.

- $16 k for the hardware (per drive)
- I imagine $2k for time
- And about $20k in depreciation and missed resale opportunities on your boat due to the fact you don't have bravo's, xr's or 6's!

Another thing to consider with the Arneson is the safety issue. We spend time in the water swimming around the boat, jumping off the swim plateform ect...

With the Arnesons you have the props well beyond the swim plateform just waiting for someone to fall on.

I had a passenger slice her ankle open on a cleaver once, I could not imagine having someone fall on one.

Yes, I think thats a big factor, RESALE I would love tput an Arneson behind my boat (25' Checkmate) but between the motor and drive I would have $30,000 in to it. The only way to go is save all the stock stuff and put it back on to sell, I have talked to Arneson about their bravo-converstion mostly bolt on but I am worried about the "X" dimention, alot of trial and even more error. My O2

Let's keep the frigin' government as far away from the Marine industry as we can. When they get involved prices go up, quality goes down, and production goes overseas.
They are not the solution; free enterprise and inovation of small business is. Someone will come up with a solution if the demand is really there.

impulsive, please give us the name of the reputable engine builder who will build us a 500 hp marine motor, using all new parts, and will warranty it for 90 days. In my neighborhood I can't even buy the headers for that...

hotlavey, i think that's exactly what von bongo was suggesting: the intervention of government should be limited to preventing monopoly or oligopoly situations and ensure free enterprize and innovation. Even the hard-core liberals admit that governments should be there to provide legal framework and ensure the good functioning of free markets. In any case, Brunswick was already condemned in anti-trust suits because it was effectively subsidizing its own boat brands by giving them Mercury engines for virtually nothing, thereby providing them with an unfair competitive advantage and driving their competitors out of business. This in turn decreases competition, may enable a dominant firm to fix prices above free market levels, all while encouraging that firm to keep status quo and discourage innovation and progress. So no matter how liberal you may be, it's fairly universally accepted that govt. intervention is needed in those cases and this is the only way we'll get free enterprize and innovation back in the marine sector. Otherwise, you're right: Japanese will invade and jobs will go overseas... It's already happening with outboards and the only reason it's not happening with inboards is the fact that others are not interested in gas engines due to high gas prices anywhere but in the US. My $0.02

Super, I think it's the liberals that feel that government is the solution to all problems. Conservatives(as I am) would like to see less government intervention into business as well as private lives. I do agree,however, that when a large company starts to flex their muscles and drive competitors out of business, we do need government intervention.
My $.02 also. (We now have $.04 between us)lets start a business.

This guy is the best around. 10k won't include exhaust or install. He can make anything you want and will give you a 3 page parts list down to the wingnut too hold the air filter on.

My buddy had a 396 sbc built with 525hp, very reliable complete soup to nuts and installed for 9500. He is really good check him out.

http://www.hekimianracing.com/index.html

hotlavey, i was thinking "liberal" in terms of economics, where the argument is that economic systems will regulate themselves as long as free market and competitive conditions are maintained. thus, the government's job consists only of maintaining those conditions. Other strains of economic thought maintain the contrary, that economic systems tend towards situations of disequilibrium, most notably phases of acceleration, increases in output, demand, inflation and phases of recession. Thus, they argue that government should iron those bumps out by "taking the punch bowl away just as the party gets going" as one famous economist put it and presumably, put that punch bowl back on the table just as everybody's getting ready to leave... But you're right, private lives and the way you run business are different issues and I too think that as long as you're not doing anything logically illegal, you should be left alone. But as far as Brunswick is concerned, the issue is economic and their practices hurt the economy and the consumer. It even hurts themselves in the long-run as they are more vulnerable to foreign competition in what are increasingly global markets. And this calls for government action.

As for business, we can start a stern drive business. If this industry had the same level of competition and innovation as the IT industry, $0.04 would have been plenty to buy us a nice start-up inventory of Bravos.

Hey I have heard of a new drive system put out by Konrad Marine, it fills the gap between the brave xr and the bravo 6. And it is in the price range of the bravo xr.

I think the drive sells for about 12,500.

The Konrad 540 HP really fills a void in the drive market. Much stronger than a Bravo, Warranteed to 740 ft lbs of torque and the Konrad rep said that is a very conservative figure.

They offer a complete drive system for a Bravo swap. The motor stays in the same location and the transmission is located in the stand-off box.

Here is a pic of the 540 HP with the Bravo box

In this photo you can see the location of the tranny

There are options between the Bravo and #VI drives. The IIIA and the #V are still around. I would also love to see some competition for Mercury, but it is very difficult for a company to come out with a new product and compete head to head with a powerhouse like Mercury.

Mercury simply bought the #6 design frm Kiekhafer about, oh eighteen years ago. The only substantial changes to the drive since then were forced on Mercury by other suppliers (Weismann: dry-sump) or other forces (Hering/APBA: updated CNC skeg).

The Konrad 540 fills the gap between the Bravo XR and the #6. Probably most similar to the IIIA and V, however, new and parts are manufactured entirely under one roof.
These drives have done lots of diesel work over the last 7 years replacing others that cannot take the torque. I guess I don't see how the gas application would be any different. When you can take more torque, you break less often.

You will see an upgrade from Mercury. New unit, way tougher than the XR, shimable uppers with tapered roller bearings etc. Bolts on a Bravo Transom assy. They are done with r&d, production should be started in Stillwater soon, if it hasn't already.

Wasn't JAP an English Motor Mfg. :D

Mark I hope you are right...and I hope it is priced REASONABLE...

Interesting rumor, tell us more!

yeap.... James.... A.... Prestwich.... JAP

I've been looking for alternative to TRS drives--pretty much same questions need answered--

Arnesons are great--BUT--require either transmission change from B/W to TwinDisc drop tranny OR lower engine several inches to get drives to right location on transon--big bucks and/or lotta work; the Arenson conversion kit is well done but prices project out of realistic reach for ROI;

Konrads seem well done and folks are super knowledgable--but you get locked in to proprietary parts and limited distribution and low volume sales make pricing too high to have good ROI on older boat;

I just found some info on a TRS to Bravo adapter at Outdrives.com -- I'm waiting for thier specs and prices -- we'll see if that's a viable alternative to traditional Bravo conversion PITA;

Nobody's talked about JetDrive's ??

I've got the Arensons but gonnahave to bail on that conversion because of cost and technical issue's--anybody interested ???

Anybody got any really creative TRS replacement success stories?

ASgree with all ...would like stong drive for less $$$$$

However - say i buy a Conrad, Weisman, B-Max etc, go out for the day and have a problem. The drive needs to be removed, crateed up, sent to mfg, wait for diagnosis, authorize repair or correction, wait till it is shipped back to me, bribe mechanic to re-install and hoped i have not missed a month of precious boating time.

Most Quality shops can repair and or replace Mercury drives within a weeks time. Service and inventory will get me back on the water quickly. I'm stickin with the quickest solution....not the least expensive

Merc.
 

Mark Bentley ...heard similar talk today at a Poker Run. Merc was testing in the Keys recently with new drives. They tested a drive on his 04 25 Outlaw , GPS'ed at 75mph 496HO a gain of 7mph over a stock Bravo. There are some upgrades in the pipeline. What exactly those upgrades will be, we'll have to wait and see.
John

Merc's new shimmable upper is out now on new HP packages. Just got the tools and the manuals.Lots of new tools, shimming tools, gear jig/fixtures, and lash flags. Imco for years has had good luck w/ shimming upper gear sets.Merc is on the same path now.