are pleasure boats running too fast?
03-02-2004, 10:37 AM
#61
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Government regulation will do NOTHING except cause more problems. If you don't believe me look at automobiles. How many laws are there about not drinking and driving? Speeding? Wreckless driving? Or any combination of the above? What is the biggest killer of Americans next to heart attacks? Drunk driving accidents. As was stated earlier, we need to use our heads. We need to regulate ourselves. The following excerpt is probably the most profound of this thread although MANY EXCELLENT points have been made.
Originally posted by super termoli
...COMMON SENSE...it's time for us to wise up collectively otherwise the government will do that for us and the water will cease to be that place of freedom that we all enjoy so much. So, if you wanna go fast, do it right otherwise some politician will come down hard on us and you won't be able to do it, canopy or no canopy, helmet or no helmet...
Originally posted by super termoli
...COMMON SENSE...it's time for us to wise up collectively otherwise the government will do that for us and the water will cease to be that place of freedom that we all enjoy so much. So, if you wanna go fast, do it right otherwise some politician will come down hard on us and you won't be able to do it, canopy or no canopy, helmet or no helmet...
03-02-2004, 10:38 AM
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Originally posted by GLH
I can't skydive because of the life insurance issue, not that I would.
I think the "poker run" question will be preceded by a lot before it happens. Flying a private plane is already one and motorcycle riding, skiing, heck swimming... will be included in there they have much more casualty than performance boating.
On an actuarial point of view in the view of insurance Co.'s I would wager a lot that deaths due to performance boating probably do not even remotely register on statical charts. Governments do reactive legislation based on the media and sensationalism headlines, insurance like all private sector industries have a more fact based way to analyze and issue directives.
I can't skydive because of the life insurance issue, not that I would.
I think the "poker run" question will be preceded by a lot before it happens. Flying a private plane is already one and motorcycle riding, skiing, heck swimming... will be included in there they have much more casualty than performance boating.
On an actuarial point of view in the view of insurance Co.'s I would wager a lot that deaths due to performance boating probably do not even remotely register on statical charts. Governments do reactive legislation based on the media and sensationalism headlines, insurance like all private sector industries have a more fact based way to analyze and issue directives.
03-02-2004, 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by Too Old
It's dangerous walking across a busy street for a cup of coffee.
What I don't need is bureaucrats telling me what is and isn't safe for me.
I've been vocal on this subject before. I am completely opposed to more government intrusion into my life.
I don't need more laws on the books, I don't need more folks on the government doles to enforce them and I damn sure don't need an additional tax. And folks, that's what licensing will be all about. Another way to pick your pocket while stripping away just a little more of your freedom.
I don't need Super Termoli or the Goverment telling me that I have responsibilities to my family. Who knows better what my responsibilities are than me? Some stranger?
So because there are a few, [and the statistics point to very few], folks who operate beyond their capabilities or lack common sense we should sit back and support the notion of licensing?
Not only no, but HELL NO.
It's dangerous walking across a busy street for a cup of coffee.
What I don't need is bureaucrats telling me what is and isn't safe for me.
I've been vocal on this subject before. I am completely opposed to more government intrusion into my life.
I don't need more laws on the books, I don't need more folks on the government doles to enforce them and I damn sure don't need an additional tax. And folks, that's what licensing will be all about. Another way to pick your pocket while stripping away just a little more of your freedom.
I don't need Super Termoli or the Goverment telling me that I have responsibilities to my family. Who knows better what my responsibilities are than me? Some stranger?
So because there are a few, [and the statistics point to very few], folks who operate beyond their capabilities or lack common sense we should sit back and support the notion of licensing?
Not only no, but HELL NO.
03-02-2004, 10:49 AM
#64
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Originally posted by GLH
I can't skydive because of the life insurance issue, not that I would.
I think the "poker run" question will be preceded by a lot before it happens. Flying a private plane is already one and motorcycle riding, skiing, heck swimming... will be included in there they have much more casualty than performance boating.
On an actuarial point of view in the view of insurance Co.'s I would wager a lot that deaths due to performance boating probably do not even remotely register on statical charts. Governments do reactive legislation based on the media and sensationalism headlines, insurance like all private sector industries have a more fact based way to analyze and issue directives.
I can't skydive because of the life insurance issue, not that I would.
I think the "poker run" question will be preceded by a lot before it happens. Flying a private plane is already one and motorcycle riding, skiing, heck swimming... will be included in there they have much more casualty than performance boating.
On an actuarial point of view in the view of insurance Co.'s I would wager a lot that deaths due to performance boating probably do not even remotely register on statical charts. Governments do reactive legislation based on the media and sensationalism headlines, insurance like all private sector industries have a more fact based way to analyze and issue directives.
BTW I agree.
03-02-2004, 10:52 AM
#65
speel chekk this fokker!
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before you all crucify me upside down next to catmando let me reiterate:
I am entirely opposed to the goverment stepping in and forcing regulations on us.
I am entirely opposed to the goverment stepping in and forcing regulations on us.
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Pardon me, while I whip this out!
03-02-2004, 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by Sydwayz
Saw this on CBPBA.com
This is the Kiss of Death four us right here:
This morning's Washington Post had the following:
1 Dead, 1 Missing In Race Boat Debut
Pasadena Men Were Testing New Craft
By Michael Amon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 2, 2004; Page B08
A boat builder was killed and another man was missing after a new, high-performance racing craft in which they were riding overturned on the Chesapeake Bay during its first test run Sunday afternoon, authorities said.
The body of Edwin J. Mosmiller Jr., 52, of Pasadena was found about 10 p.m. Sunday a few miles off the northern Anne Arundel County shoreline. His body was inside the new 40-foot racing boat recently built by his Baltimore company, said Heather Lynch, a spokeswoman for the Department of Natural Resources police.
Authorities yesterday were searching for Mosmiller's friend, Roger B. Madden, 42, also of Pasadena, who was driving the boat, Lynch said.
The boat is a long, sleek craft called a skater. The two were testing the craft -- dubbed Exceed the Need -- two miles off Gibson Island, cruising at high speed, when the boat overturned, Lynch said.
Skaters that Mosmiller has designed can reach 170 mph, according to Power Boat magazine. "It was a new vessel designed for racing, and they were testing the speed on it," Lynch said.
Natural Resources police used a helicopter yesterday to search the surface over a five-square-mile area south of Belvedere Shoals, Lynch said. Police boats also dragged the bottom of the bay in a quarter-square-mile area in hopes of finding Madden's body, she said.
Mosmiller and Madden left the Pasadena Yacht Yard about 2 p.m. on a calm, sunny day. Madden had the steering wheel, while Mosmiller controlled the speed of the two-seat boat, Lynch said.
Witnesses told police that the boat was cruising at extremely high speed when it suddenly capsized about 2:30 p.m., Lynch said. "We're still investigating why it happened," Lynch said. She said weather conditions did not appear to be a factor in the crash.
"We believe it was pretty calm, with minimal wind," she said.
Mosmiller and Madden were experienced boaters and owned businesses in the industry, said Louis Doetsch, owner of the Pasadena Yacht Yard. "They had been in boating for a long time," Doetsch said.
Madden Marine Services, based in Baltimore, sells engines, transports yachts and provides boat repair services. Madden "was a real good mechanic," said Doetsch, who had hired him as the yard's repairman two years ago.
For Mosmiller, who owned a machinery shop in Pasadena, high-speed boat racing was a passion, Doetsch said. He owned a series of sleek, swift racing boats and participated in high-speed races on the Chesapeake called "poker runs," Doetsch said.
A few years ago, Mosmiller started his boat-building company, Integrated Turbine Services, because he "couldn't find what he was searching for on the open market," according to his Web site. http://www.integratedturbine.com/
"Ed wanted the ultimate performance boat to satisfy his need for speed," his Web site says. "It had to be fast, stylish, safe, and possess incredible handling characteristics."
The finished product -- the ITS Turbine Skater -- was "a lesson in simplicity," according to a March 2003 review in Power Boat. Mosmiller told Doetsch that he put two helicopter engines in Exceed the Need, the boat that crashed Sunday, Doetsch said.
"It was a new experiment for him," Doetsch said.
"He owned a series of sleek, swift racing boats and participated in high-speed races on the Chesapeake called "poker runs," Doetsch said."
I HATE the media. Not only did Powerboat Magazine step in it by telling the Post the speeds, but this sealed our fate right here. I can't imagine what this Doetsch was thinking when he said this.
Saw this on CBPBA.com
This is the Kiss of Death four us right here:
This morning's Washington Post had the following:
1 Dead, 1 Missing In Race Boat Debut
Pasadena Men Were Testing New Craft
By Michael Amon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, March 2, 2004; Page B08
A boat builder was killed and another man was missing after a new, high-performance racing craft in which they were riding overturned on the Chesapeake Bay during its first test run Sunday afternoon, authorities said.
The body of Edwin J. Mosmiller Jr., 52, of Pasadena was found about 10 p.m. Sunday a few miles off the northern Anne Arundel County shoreline. His body was inside the new 40-foot racing boat recently built by his Baltimore company, said Heather Lynch, a spokeswoman for the Department of Natural Resources police.
Authorities yesterday were searching for Mosmiller's friend, Roger B. Madden, 42, also of Pasadena, who was driving the boat, Lynch said.
The boat is a long, sleek craft called a skater. The two were testing the craft -- dubbed Exceed the Need -- two miles off Gibson Island, cruising at high speed, when the boat overturned, Lynch said.
Skaters that Mosmiller has designed can reach 170 mph, according to Power Boat magazine. "It was a new vessel designed for racing, and they were testing the speed on it," Lynch said.
Natural Resources police used a helicopter yesterday to search the surface over a five-square-mile area south of Belvedere Shoals, Lynch said. Police boats also dragged the bottom of the bay in a quarter-square-mile area in hopes of finding Madden's body, she said.
Mosmiller and Madden left the Pasadena Yacht Yard about 2 p.m. on a calm, sunny day. Madden had the steering wheel, while Mosmiller controlled the speed of the two-seat boat, Lynch said.
Witnesses told police that the boat was cruising at extremely high speed when it suddenly capsized about 2:30 p.m., Lynch said. "We're still investigating why it happened," Lynch said. She said weather conditions did not appear to be a factor in the crash.
"We believe it was pretty calm, with minimal wind," she said.
Mosmiller and Madden were experienced boaters and owned businesses in the industry, said Louis Doetsch, owner of the Pasadena Yacht Yard. "They had been in boating for a long time," Doetsch said.
Madden Marine Services, based in Baltimore, sells engines, transports yachts and provides boat repair services. Madden "was a real good mechanic," said Doetsch, who had hired him as the yard's repairman two years ago.
For Mosmiller, who owned a machinery shop in Pasadena, high-speed boat racing was a passion, Doetsch said. He owned a series of sleek, swift racing boats and participated in high-speed races on the Chesapeake called "poker runs," Doetsch said.
A few years ago, Mosmiller started his boat-building company, Integrated Turbine Services, because he "couldn't find what he was searching for on the open market," according to his Web site. http://www.integratedturbine.com/
"Ed wanted the ultimate performance boat to satisfy his need for speed," his Web site says. "It had to be fast, stylish, safe, and possess incredible handling characteristics."
The finished product -- the ITS Turbine Skater -- was "a lesson in simplicity," according to a March 2003 review in Power Boat. Mosmiller told Doetsch that he put two helicopter engines in Exceed the Need, the boat that crashed Sunday, Doetsch said.
"It was a new experiment for him," Doetsch said.
"He owned a series of sleek, swift racing boats and participated in high-speed races on the Chesapeake called "poker runs," Doetsch said."
I HATE the media. Not only did Powerboat Magazine step in it by telling the Post the speeds, but this sealed our fate right here. I can't imagine what this Doetsch was thinking when he said this.
03-02-2004, 11:22 AM
#67
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Speed regulations NO, possible licensing or certificates I would accept. I hate to say that, but I've know of instances where people have bought boats that they had no business operating.
Prime example: a gentlemen purchased a 100mph V Bottom as his first boat. Fortunately he didn't have any major instances(just many minor ones) - he was defiantly in over his head. The potential was defiantly there for a serious accident.
Most of us have started with smaller/slower boats and/or have been 'schooled' by experienced boaters before jumping behind a 100+mph missile. The recent unfortunate incident involved an experienced boater, but how many accidents can you think of that were caused by inexperienced operators that let their ego get the best of them. Maybe a required experience or training class for boaters purchasing larger or some HP boats would help reduce the # of accidents. If we do not find some way of reducing the # and severity of HP boating accidents we may find ourselves without the ability to find an insurance company willing to cover us! Just my 2cents.
Prime example: a gentlemen purchased a 100mph V Bottom as his first boat. Fortunately he didn't have any major instances(just many minor ones) - he was defiantly in over his head. The potential was defiantly there for a serious accident.
Most of us have started with smaller/slower boats and/or have been 'schooled' by experienced boaters before jumping behind a 100+mph missile. The recent unfortunate incident involved an experienced boater, but how many accidents can you think of that were caused by inexperienced operators that let their ego get the best of them. Maybe a required experience or training class for boaters purchasing larger or some HP boats would help reduce the # of accidents. If we do not find some way of reducing the # and severity of HP boating accidents we may find ourselves without the ability to find an insurance company willing to cover us! Just my 2cents.
03-02-2004, 11:33 AM
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I don't think that we'll see any legislation or regulations as long as we're only wiping oursleves out. Once someone hits a family at 140 mph then you'll see the government come down hard. Safety is a major issue. Canopy boats are going to increase your survival rate but many of these boats are not equipped with full time air. Being one that got knocked out on my way over, there is no way you're going to stick a regulator in your mouth when your out. In conditions where you can't survive in cold water, you also better have a helicopter with a rescue team ready. Above 140 you better have one ready too. Running fast is a blast, just can't understand why people are not willing to lower the risk.
03-02-2004, 11:33 AM
#69
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i don't think the real issue here is speed. The issue is training. I have boated on lake erie for all 23 years of my life. I know that is young compared to alot of people on here but I log hundreds of hours on the water each year.
It has been my experience that people who don't know anything about boating in general usually get themselves or other in trouble.
Last year I watch a brand new sea ray, 34 feet or so, hit a dock at Put-in-bay, while trying to dock during the day, so hard his wife hit and brake the windshield and there was a hole in the hull so large I could have stepped in. I over heard the guy say he had just picked it up from the dealer and this was his first run on the boat -- and also his first boat.
My point is boats and the water are totally different from cars and the road. A small mistake on the water can be much more catastrophic than one on the road. it doesnt' really matter what speed the can run there are too many factors that can contribute to catastrophe on the water, factors that are only known about through experience and education.
We need to force people to get educated before they get in a boat. My .02.
It has been my experience that people who don't know anything about boating in general usually get themselves or other in trouble.
Last year I watch a brand new sea ray, 34 feet or so, hit a dock at Put-in-bay, while trying to dock during the day, so hard his wife hit and brake the windshield and there was a hole in the hull so large I could have stepped in. I over heard the guy say he had just picked it up from the dealer and this was his first run on the boat -- and also his first boat.
My point is boats and the water are totally different from cars and the road. A small mistake on the water can be much more catastrophic than one on the road. it doesnt' really matter what speed the can run there are too many factors that can contribute to catastrophe on the water, factors that are only known about through experience and education.
We need to force people to get educated before they get in a boat. My .02.
03-02-2004, 11:52 AM
#70
JC Performance Engines
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It is not necessarily the spee that kills, but the idiot behind the wheel. You have to be responsible with any kind of vehicle/vessel you are driving.
What are the stats of general boating accidents?
How about accidents caused by large wakes from big Sea Rays, Hatterasas, Vikings and Betrams?
How about the guy that liesurely cuts accross the chanel without caring who is running in it, or the idiot fisherman anchored up right in the middle of the inlet?
There are guys who run the topguns or 41 apaches in the chanel at 50+mph, but is that necessary? Especially when the ocean is but 5 minutes away? It ain't called offshore for nothing.
But I've seen more dangerous situation caused my idiots than just by being fast boats.
MY $0.02.
What are the stats of general boating accidents?
How about accidents caused by large wakes from big Sea Rays, Hatterasas, Vikings and Betrams?
How about the guy that liesurely cuts accross the chanel without caring who is running in it, or the idiot fisherman anchored up right in the middle of the inlet?
There are guys who run the topguns or 41 apaches in the chanel at 50+mph, but is that necessary? Especially when the ocean is but 5 minutes away? It ain't called offshore for nothing.
But I've seen more dangerous situation caused my idiots than just by being fast boats.
MY $0.02.
