Stepp
03-21-2004, 04:50 PM
#21
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Jafo, you beat me to it. I was fixing to shout "BULLSHT!" on the pontoon steps being there for a softer landing.
Yes, LPA, regardless of what your source has told you, steps on seaplanes ARE MOST CERTAINLY to break surface tension that would otherwise keep a fully loaded seaplane from being able to take off. Do they make for a softer landing? Possibly, but if so, then it is a secondary BENEFIT, not a primary purpose.
Termoli, sorry, but your arguments that a properly designed step bottom is "just as safe" as a properly designed straight vee is also BULLSHT.
Granted, a properly designed step bottom WHEN DRIVEN BY SOMEBODY FAMILIAR WITH ITS HANDLING IDIOSYNCRASIES is going to be a safe boat. BUT you have a whole WORLD full of people who have "been told" or "have learned" that you "trim out for speed" and you "trim in for turning". These guidelines are overly simplistic even in the most forgiving of hull designs, but it is still pretty much an ironclad rule of thumb that applies to straight vees, padvees, trihulls, cathedral hulls, tunnel hulls, and catamarans for the most part. Even if the out=speed equation is misused and in all cases overtrimming will cause a degradation in stability and usually an accompanied speed loss, this loss of stability comes about in a pretty obvious fashion. And on all of those above examples, in=turn can be overused, but will still work...
A step hull, however, defies "conventional logic" in that they usually have a narrower range of trim at which they perform optimally. Overtrimming causes a speed loss, which is not dangerous in itself. Trimming under, in the conventional fashion for turning, however, DOES HAVE A VERY BAD OUTCOME in MANY step bottom designs when speed is factored into the mix.
Only spin out on badly designed hulls? Properly designed step hulls are safe as a Jonboat?
Pure crap. I watched a 377 Hustler take a hard spin on my lake in normal water conditions at around 50mph.
Was that an improperly designed hull done by an inexperienced pleasureboat designer? I'd say NO, but I guess it depends on your personal opinion of the Fiores.
The guy driving had owned boats for his entire life. His last three boats were all capable of running over 75. He was by no means a "motorhead" or a racer. Just a gold chain wearing dark haired suntanned go-fast guy. Exactly like 85% of performance boating's target audience...
He had the money to buy it. He had years of time in fast boats. Nobody felt the need to educate him on the fact that his long-learned practices were not applicable to his new boat.
There were broken bones involved in his spin. Thankfully, that's all.
I'm with Too Old. I buy on real world performance. Doesn't matter so much on what gizmos are on the hull, as long as they work.
Yes, LPA, regardless of what your source has told you, steps on seaplanes ARE MOST CERTAINLY to break surface tension that would otherwise keep a fully loaded seaplane from being able to take off. Do they make for a softer landing? Possibly, but if so, then it is a secondary BENEFIT, not a primary purpose.
Termoli, sorry, but your arguments that a properly designed step bottom is "just as safe" as a properly designed straight vee is also BULLSHT.
Granted, a properly designed step bottom WHEN DRIVEN BY SOMEBODY FAMILIAR WITH ITS HANDLING IDIOSYNCRASIES is going to be a safe boat. BUT you have a whole WORLD full of people who have "been told" or "have learned" that you "trim out for speed" and you "trim in for turning". These guidelines are overly simplistic even in the most forgiving of hull designs, but it is still pretty much an ironclad rule of thumb that applies to straight vees, padvees, trihulls, cathedral hulls, tunnel hulls, and catamarans for the most part. Even if the out=speed equation is misused and in all cases overtrimming will cause a degradation in stability and usually an accompanied speed loss, this loss of stability comes about in a pretty obvious fashion. And on all of those above examples, in=turn can be overused, but will still work...
A step hull, however, defies "conventional logic" in that they usually have a narrower range of trim at which they perform optimally. Overtrimming causes a speed loss, which is not dangerous in itself. Trimming under, in the conventional fashion for turning, however, DOES HAVE A VERY BAD OUTCOME in MANY step bottom designs when speed is factored into the mix.
Only spin out on badly designed hulls? Properly designed step hulls are safe as a Jonboat?
Pure crap. I watched a 377 Hustler take a hard spin on my lake in normal water conditions at around 50mph.
Was that an improperly designed hull done by an inexperienced pleasureboat designer? I'd say NO, but I guess it depends on your personal opinion of the Fiores.
The guy driving had owned boats for his entire life. His last three boats were all capable of running over 75. He was by no means a "motorhead" or a racer. Just a gold chain wearing dark haired suntanned go-fast guy. Exactly like 85% of performance boating's target audience...
He had the money to buy it. He had years of time in fast boats. Nobody felt the need to educate him on the fact that his long-learned practices were not applicable to his new boat.
There were broken bones involved in his spin. Thankfully, that's all.
I'm with Too Old. I buy on real world performance. Doesn't matter so much on what gizmos are on the hull, as long as they work.
03-21-2004, 05:12 PM
#22
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I would say he did something wrong then. I have turned my Gun hard at speeds faster than 50 mph, and it has never done anything weird.
I will turn my stepped V harder than I would ever attempt to turn one of my cats.
I will turn my stepped V harder than I would ever attempt to turn one of my cats.
03-21-2004, 06:22 PM
#23
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Originally posted by Havasu Cig
I will turn my stepped V harder than I would ever attempt to turn one of my cats.
I will turn my stepped V harder than I would ever attempt to turn one of my cats.
mcollinstn, some of the best cat throttleman know how to trim out going into a turn. It keeps the Rs up but the prop will lose bite and the bow will set. Not sure if the same can be applied to a V bottom.
03-21-2004, 11:30 PM
#24
Chevy-Harley fan
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fever Mike
[B] I have said the same thing in many other post's and even someone "poofed" a Velocity thread last month due to all the false Velocity mud slinger statments some Velocity owners were touting on here. It's totally ridiculous!
No Mike it was poofed because Of the things you said about Steve Stepp. But I thought it was great you finally admitted your hidden agenda. It explains why you were always bashing the "potato chip" boats as you call them. I think we were still waiting for those pictures you always claim you have.
[B] I have said the same thing in many other post's and even someone "poofed" a Velocity thread last month due to all the false Velocity mud slinger statments some Velocity owners were touting on here. It's totally ridiculous!
No Mike it was poofed because Of the things you said about Steve Stepp. But I thought it was great you finally admitted your hidden agenda. It explains why you were always bashing the "potato chip" boats as you call them. I think we were still waiting for those pictures you always claim you have.
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Pete
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03-22-2004, 03:29 AM
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I dunno mcollinstn, but what you're saying is that there is often a human error associated with accidents involving stepped hull boats. So I'll reiterate what I said before: just because an accident involving a stepped hull boat happens, it does not follow that steps are to blame. Just because people do not know how to use a stepped hull doesn't mean that they are less safe than conventional hulls those people are used to. This has nothing to do with the hull design, it has everything to do with driver experience and skill. I mentioned other factors like X-dimension which is to blame in some incidents and where steps have incorrectly taken the blame. Some time ago, there was a similar thread and I posted a car analogy: suppose you're used to a Viper which has a heavy front end and then you sit into a Porsche GT2 which is quite the opposite and you apply the same cornering technique in your favourite fast corner. You are very likely to go for a spin. Does that make a GT2 less safe than a Viper? Nope, you just have to learn how to drive it properly...
Secondly, a Hustler 377 is a Talon cat, designed by Gary Armington not Paul Fiore. I know this product very well and spinning out at 50 will not happen.
It might be that you're thinking about a 388 Slingshot but it's still the same thing. That boat will not spin out at 50. In my opinion, that person was a) going quite a bit faster than 50 and b) did something very wrong.
So if you guys want to blame incidents which occured due to driver error (inexperience with stepped hulls) or rigging problems on stepped hulls, go ahead. But your argument is fundamentally flawed. Before making an assesment of stepped hulls, you must control for other variables which can lead to accidents.
Secondly, a Hustler 377 is a Talon cat, designed by Gary Armington not Paul Fiore. I know this product very well and spinning out at 50 will not happen.
It might be that you're thinking about a 388 Slingshot but it's still the same thing. That boat will not spin out at 50. In my opinion, that person was a) going quite a bit faster than 50 and b) did something very wrong.
So if you guys want to blame incidents which occured due to driver error (inexperience with stepped hulls) or rigging problems on stepped hulls, go ahead. But your argument is fundamentally flawed. Before making an assesment of stepped hulls, you must control for other variables which can lead to accidents.
03-22-2004, 06:50 PM
#26
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Mr Velocity , I have had a few crown and sevens but did you say a 36 skater will out turn any v. I have a little seat time in a 32/36 skaters and there aint no way Ill try and turn one like a v. But maybe there is something I dont know.
