Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
08-02-2004, 02:47 AM
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Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
well said, quickshift. governing bodies have a history of questionable decisions which have been decribed as in the interest of sport but were actually intended to force out certain manufacturers. Seatek diesels suffered the same faith and Trimax surface drives (and Weismann drives for that matter!) were simply outlawed when Mercury stepped in as a major sponsor? In exactly what way is that in the interest of sport?
If anything, it slows the technological progress down which is certainly not in the interest of consumers. Money issues? Yeah right, as if guys like Edoardo Polli have money problems. He's absolutely loaded and races for fun. He's a hell of a racer but a real bad loser. And if a piece of equipment used by his opponent is a bit too dominant, you can bet it will be gone next season. In the best interest of offshore racing naturally. And that's the problem. This sport is full of rich boys and rich sponsors which get annoyed really fast and are real sore losers. Instead of flexing their muscles to produce a better piece of gear, they prefer to flex their muscles behind the scenes and force political decisions. Why? Because it costs a lot less than years of R&D and this makes the balance sheet look a whole lot better.
You're right, 2 speeds are OK but 4 or 5 would be great. It's just that I'm pretty happy to see that a major corporation like ZF get into this and I'm hoping they will continue their work and add another gear shortly.
BTW, didn't big M try to do something with the Blackhawk drive? Wow, that went really well. But that's OK because they've totally reinvented things of late. Imagine, Bravo 1 became XR and the HP500 became HP525. Groundbreaking, nothing short of sensational progress!
If anything, it slows the technological progress down which is certainly not in the interest of consumers. Money issues? Yeah right, as if guys like Edoardo Polli have money problems. He's absolutely loaded and races for fun. He's a hell of a racer but a real bad loser. And if a piece of equipment used by his opponent is a bit too dominant, you can bet it will be gone next season. In the best interest of offshore racing naturally. And that's the problem. This sport is full of rich boys and rich sponsors which get annoyed really fast and are real sore losers. Instead of flexing their muscles to produce a better piece of gear, they prefer to flex their muscles behind the scenes and force political decisions. Why? Because it costs a lot less than years of R&D and this makes the balance sheet look a whole lot better.
You're right, 2 speeds are OK but 4 or 5 would be great. It's just that I'm pretty happy to see that a major corporation like ZF get into this and I'm hoping they will continue their work and add another gear shortly.
BTW, didn't big M try to do something with the Blackhawk drive? Wow, that went really well. But that's OK because they've totally reinvented things of late. Imagine, Bravo 1 became XR and the HP500 became HP525. Groundbreaking, nothing short of sensational progress!
08-03-2004, 08:19 AM
#42
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Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
Quickshift- You've definitely peaked my interest with your tranny! Can you give us some more details? 
Brian
Brian
08-04-2004, 01:54 PM
#43
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Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
This is Chris again, but I'm logged in under Pat's name here.
Super Termoli,
I was very careful to state things in a non offending manner, especially considering the people involved in UIM and APBA, but you pretty much hit it on the head!
I also decided not to write about the Blackhawk project, but since you brought it up and martiniboat is interested in our trannies, I'll explain the Blackhawk and a project we had to compete against it.
As you know the Blackhawk is a two speed. It is actually a planetary, so it is limited as far as ratio selection goes. It also has a lot of rotating mass, and a whole host of other problems associated with the planetary design. One such problem is that if you want to put it into a boat, the boat builder has to move the engine forward 12 inches to fit it in. Now that means the builder has to redo his hull tooling, create new cabin tooling, etc... not many builder would be happy to do that.
I really should shut up now, but this is the most important fact. Normally a boat has only one speed and no clutch. So to keep the engine from stalling, the prop has to have slip built into it. You get to keep this slip throughout the engine rpm range, so you loose across the whole range.
If you couple a trans to the engine with the same prop, you get more slip in low. In other words you can't get the power down without boiling the prop. So imagine you are in first, the prop is cavitating, the boat is going nowhere, the engine runs to redline, then you have to shift. You make the shift, but the boat speed is too slow, the ratio drop is too big, it goes into 2nd and the boat falls on it's face. Then you downshift back into first to get going and the cycle repeats.
Performance wise the 2 speed sucks, combined with the fact that it takes up a lot of room, and you have a transmission that is not worth ****. Now Mercury engineers are not transmission designers, so that was their only route to take, to use an existing planetary, and why not it is in every car- it should work.
Well it doesn't and that is why when we were asked to make a transmission to compete against the Blackhawk, we didn't use a 2 speed planetary.
We came up with a 3 speed semi-automatic transmission. Our task was to fit it in with the restraint that we couldn't move the engine 12 inches forward in the boat. It had to be less so that we could have something over the Blackhawk package.
When all was said and done, we moved it forward a whopping 1/2 inch! It works, we have never had a problem with the unit, and the prototype is here to check out. We tried it with single and dual props, all in an effort to find traction. The dual was obviously much better, but still it is lacking. More prop development is needed to take full advantage of the gearbox, but the technology was arrested because Mercury pulled the plug on the Blackhawk, and thusly
the need for a competing gearbox wasn't necessary anymore and our program was dropped as well.
The other issue concerning the selling of a transmission was this mentality.
"Other boats don't have transmissions, why do I need one? I'd rather use the money to buy a bigger engine or get a fancy paint job."
Brain, If you are still interested or if you have further questions, either respond here or give us a call. Ask for Pat or myself.
Chris Weismann
949-645-4064
Weismann Marine
http://www.weismann.net
Super Termoli,
I was very careful to state things in a non offending manner, especially considering the people involved in UIM and APBA, but you pretty much hit it on the head!
I also decided not to write about the Blackhawk project, but since you brought it up and martiniboat is interested in our trannies, I'll explain the Blackhawk and a project we had to compete against it.
As you know the Blackhawk is a two speed. It is actually a planetary, so it is limited as far as ratio selection goes. It also has a lot of rotating mass, and a whole host of other problems associated with the planetary design. One such problem is that if you want to put it into a boat, the boat builder has to move the engine forward 12 inches to fit it in. Now that means the builder has to redo his hull tooling, create new cabin tooling, etc... not many builder would be happy to do that.
I really should shut up now, but this is the most important fact. Normally a boat has only one speed and no clutch. So to keep the engine from stalling, the prop has to have slip built into it. You get to keep this slip throughout the engine rpm range, so you loose across the whole range.
If you couple a trans to the engine with the same prop, you get more slip in low. In other words you can't get the power down without boiling the prop. So imagine you are in first, the prop is cavitating, the boat is going nowhere, the engine runs to redline, then you have to shift. You make the shift, but the boat speed is too slow, the ratio drop is too big, it goes into 2nd and the boat falls on it's face. Then you downshift back into first to get going and the cycle repeats.
Performance wise the 2 speed sucks, combined with the fact that it takes up a lot of room, and you have a transmission that is not worth ****. Now Mercury engineers are not transmission designers, so that was their only route to take, to use an existing planetary, and why not it is in every car- it should work.
Well it doesn't and that is why when we were asked to make a transmission to compete against the Blackhawk, we didn't use a 2 speed planetary.
We came up with a 3 speed semi-automatic transmission. Our task was to fit it in with the restraint that we couldn't move the engine 12 inches forward in the boat. It had to be less so that we could have something over the Blackhawk package.
When all was said and done, we moved it forward a whopping 1/2 inch! It works, we have never had a problem with the unit, and the prototype is here to check out. We tried it with single and dual props, all in an effort to find traction. The dual was obviously much better, but still it is lacking. More prop development is needed to take full advantage of the gearbox, but the technology was arrested because Mercury pulled the plug on the Blackhawk, and thusly
the need for a competing gearbox wasn't necessary anymore and our program was dropped as well.The other issue concerning the selling of a transmission was this mentality.
"Other boats don't have transmissions, why do I need one? I'd rather use the money to buy a bigger engine or get a fancy paint job."
Brain, If you are still interested or if you have further questions, either respond here or give us a call. Ask for Pat or myself.
Chris Weismann
949-645-4064
Weismann Marine
http://www.weismann.net
08-05-2004, 10:28 AM
#44
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Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
We developed semi-automatic gearboxes that are computer controlled, air shifted, have no clutch, and always have more than 2 speeds if we can help it. The driver hits a switch, the computers do the rest. Simple, reliable, and huge performance gains come with it.
Chris- The above quote is what really intrigues me here. Are you able to share specifics on operation without jeapardizing any 'trade secrets?'
Thanks again,
Brian
Chris- The above quote is what really intrigues me here. Are you able to share specifics on operation without jeapardizing any 'trade secrets?'
Thanks again,
Brian
05-06-2006, 07:48 PM
#45
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Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
Originally Posted by shifter
This is Chris again, but I'm logged in under Pat's name here.
Super Termoli,
I was very careful to state things in a non offending manner, especially considering the people involved in UIM and APBA, but you pretty much hit it on the head!
I also decided not to write about the Blackhawk project, but since you brought it up and martiniboat is interested in our trannies, I'll explain the Blackhawk and a project we had to compete against it.
As you know the Blackhawk is a two speed. It is actually a planetary, so it is limited as far as ratio selection goes. It also has a lot of rotating mass, and a whole host of other problems associated with the planetary design. One such problem is that if you want to put it into a boat, the boat builder has to move the engine forward 12 inches to fit it in. Now that means the builder has to redo his hull tooling, create new cabin tooling, etc... not many builder would be happy to do that.
I really should shut up now, but this is the most important fact. Normally a boat has only one speed and no clutch. So to keep the engine from stalling, the prop has to have slip built into it. You get to keep this slip throughout the engine rpm range, so you loose across the whole range.
If you couple a trans to the engine with the same prop, you get more slip in low. In other words you can't get the power down without boiling the prop. So imagine you are in first, the prop is cavitating, the boat is going nowhere, the engine runs to redline, then you have to shift. You make the shift, but the boat speed is too slow, the ratio drop is too big, it goes into 2nd and the boat falls on it's face. Then you downshift back into first to get going and the cycle repeats.
Performance wise the 2 speed sucks, combined with the fact that it takes up a lot of room, and you have a transmission that is not worth ****. Now Mercury engineers are not transmission designers, so that was their only route to take, to use an existing planetary, and why not it is in every car- it should work.
Well it doesn't and that is why when we were asked to make a transmission to compete against the Blackhawk, we didn't use a 2 speed planetary.
We came up with a 3 speed semi-automatic transmission. Our task was to fit it in with the restraint that we couldn't move the engine 12 inches forward in the boat. It had to be less so that we could have something over the Blackhawk package.
When all was said and done, we moved it forward a whopping 1/2 inch! It works, we have never had a problem with the unit, and the prototype is here to check out. We tried it with single and dual props, all in an effort to find traction. The dual was obviously much better, but still it is lacking. More prop development is needed to take full advantage of the gearbox, but the technology was arrested because Mercury pulled the plug on the Blackhawk, and thusly the need for a competing gearbox wasn't necessary anymore and our program was dropped as well.
The other issue concerning the selling of a transmission was this mentality.
"Other boats don't have transmissions, why do I need one? I'd rather use the money to buy a bigger engine or get a fancy paint job."
Brain, If you are still interested or if you have further questions, either respond here or give us a call. Ask for Pat or myself.
Chris Weismann
949-645-4064
Weismann Marine
http://www.weismann.net
Super Termoli,
I was very careful to state things in a non offending manner, especially considering the people involved in UIM and APBA, but you pretty much hit it on the head!
I also decided not to write about the Blackhawk project, but since you brought it up and martiniboat is interested in our trannies, I'll explain the Blackhawk and a project we had to compete against it.
As you know the Blackhawk is a two speed. It is actually a planetary, so it is limited as far as ratio selection goes. It also has a lot of rotating mass, and a whole host of other problems associated with the planetary design. One such problem is that if you want to put it into a boat, the boat builder has to move the engine forward 12 inches to fit it in. Now that means the builder has to redo his hull tooling, create new cabin tooling, etc... not many builder would be happy to do that.
I really should shut up now, but this is the most important fact. Normally a boat has only one speed and no clutch. So to keep the engine from stalling, the prop has to have slip built into it. You get to keep this slip throughout the engine rpm range, so you loose across the whole range.
If you couple a trans to the engine with the same prop, you get more slip in low. In other words you can't get the power down without boiling the prop. So imagine you are in first, the prop is cavitating, the boat is going nowhere, the engine runs to redline, then you have to shift. You make the shift, but the boat speed is too slow, the ratio drop is too big, it goes into 2nd and the boat falls on it's face. Then you downshift back into first to get going and the cycle repeats.
Performance wise the 2 speed sucks, combined with the fact that it takes up a lot of room, and you have a transmission that is not worth ****. Now Mercury engineers are not transmission designers, so that was their only route to take, to use an existing planetary, and why not it is in every car- it should work.
Well it doesn't and that is why when we were asked to make a transmission to compete against the Blackhawk, we didn't use a 2 speed planetary.
We came up with a 3 speed semi-automatic transmission. Our task was to fit it in with the restraint that we couldn't move the engine 12 inches forward in the boat. It had to be less so that we could have something over the Blackhawk package.
When all was said and done, we moved it forward a whopping 1/2 inch! It works, we have never had a problem with the unit, and the prototype is here to check out. We tried it with single and dual props, all in an effort to find traction. The dual was obviously much better, but still it is lacking. More prop development is needed to take full advantage of the gearbox, but the technology was arrested because Mercury pulled the plug on the Blackhawk, and thusly
the need for a competing gearbox wasn't necessary anymore and our program was dropped as well.The other issue concerning the selling of a transmission was this mentality.
"Other boats don't have transmissions, why do I need one? I'd rather use the money to buy a bigger engine or get a fancy paint job."
Brain, If you are still interested or if you have further questions, either respond here or give us a call. Ask for Pat or myself.
Chris Weismann
949-645-4064
Weismann Marine
http://www.weismann.net
Pat or Chris, is this now readily available, I was unable to find it on your website. There was a lot of good info on this thread, and Im trying to get some pertainent info using twin 480's in a 4300 , and how it exactly works in this application. Thanks Jeff 228-216-0900cell
05-06-2006, 09:45 PM
#46
www.weismann.net
Gold Member
Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
Hey Chris that is Blacktrack. Blackhawk was a surfacing duoprop. Sheeeeeeeeeshe.
We are finishing a 3 speed dropbox with fnr shift on the fly. The 3-speed portion is electric shift. The fnr portion is completely new. I have been working on it for three years now but it is working real well on the dyno. We will be testing in a boat in approximately two months.
Meanwhile on the racing front we are putting out some new boxes this year that should be out soon. Photos are posted in the racers section.
My brother is in the process of renewing the website so be patient. We have been a little busy as you will see.
pat W
We are finishing a 3 speed dropbox with fnr shift on the fly. The 3-speed portion is electric shift. The fnr portion is completely new. I have been working on it for three years now but it is working real well on the dyno. We will be testing in a boat in approximately two months.
Meanwhile on the racing front we are putting out some new boxes this year that should be out soon. Photos are posted in the racers section.
My brother is in the process of renewing the website so be patient. We have been a little busy as you will see.
pat W
05-07-2006, 04:23 AM
#47
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
Originally Posted by shifter
Hey Chris that is Blacktrack. Blackhawk was a surfacing duoprop. Sheeeeeeeeeshe.
We are finishing a 3 speed dropbox with fnr shift on the fly. The 3-speed portion is electric shift. The fnr portion is completely new. I have been working on it for three years now but it is working real well on the dyno. We will be testing in a boat in approximately two months.
Meanwhile on the racing front we are putting out some new boxes this year that should be out soon. Photos are posted in the racers section.
My brother is in the process of renewing the website so be patient. We have been a little busy as you will see.
pat W
We are finishing a 3 speed dropbox with fnr shift on the fly. The 3-speed portion is electric shift. The fnr portion is completely new. I have been working on it for three years now but it is working real well on the dyno. We will be testing in a boat in approximately two months.
Meanwhile on the racing front we are putting out some new boxes this year that should be out soon. Photos are posted in the racers section.
My brother is in the process of renewing the website so be patient. We have been a little busy as you will see.
pat W
05-07-2006, 09:11 AM
#48
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Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
I hate to say this guys but Brian (Martini boat) Died last year. So dont expect him to reply. Was a very sad thing and alot of us were really blasted by this. Just in case you did not know he passed on.
J
J
05-07-2006, 09:26 AM
#49
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Platinum Member
Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
Originally Posted by Jayl13
I hate to say this guys but Brian (Martini boat) Died last year. So dont expect him to reply. Was a very sad thing and alot of us were really blasted by this. Just in case you did not know he passed on.
J
J
05-07-2006, 09:31 AM
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Re: Let's talk transmissions...main reasons for NOT having multiple gears in a boat.
Agreed, he created magic with the victory tabs to replace the inferior bennetts. Then he was a machine, just kept on coming up with fantastic products.
He is still very much missed by alot of us.
J
He is still very much missed by alot of us.
J
