Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Hey phknlwyr! You know any attorneys out this way who might specialize in government real estate leases or concession contracts?

We're having a knockdown dragout fight with a marina out here who is operating on AZ state land.

I'm looking for a lawyer because we might have to take this fight to the next level.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Yellow pages?

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Call the bar association in AZ and tell them what you need.

They'll give you a few choices in that location/specialty.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Art,

Did something happen after we recieved the letter from the state?

If anybody can refer a good lawyer it would be much appreciated by your fellow performace boaters. The only good ramp at Havasu is being operated by a nazi that hates performance boats but since he is on State owned land he is in violation of his lease to provide public launch services.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

PM phknlwr next time and ask for a phone number to discuss this or ask if there are any attorneys here that could "PM you in regards to a personal legal matter". It is a good policy not to discuss your personal legal matters on an open forum on the internet. Any material here can be subpoenaed and the board moderators don't need to be involved in doing your dirty laundry and you don't want your case known outside of "attorney client privilege" which protects you. This forum allows sensitive material to potentially get into the wrong hands.

You always get an attorney before the "knockdown drag-out fight" by the way.
Don't be offended as this is very good legal advice for free.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

I am sure LR appreciates the advice but it is not a personal matter. It is regarding restricting the use of a public ramp to performance boats.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Sorry, I figured it was a personal thing. Unless it's in writing.....

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Without seeing a lease, I would only guess that there is a "use clause" that dictates how the land may and may not be used. If other boats are launching from the ramp of similar size - i.e. length, beam, draw - it would stand to reason that he is unreasonably restricting performance boats from using the ramp. For example, if a 33ft CC with a single outboard launches, but he then denies access to a 33ft twin engine performance boat, what could be the reason for the denial? Government leases usually have clauses in them whereby the lessee agrees not to engage in discriminatory practices; however, performance boaters are not a protected class. By protected class I mean a minority, individual with a handicap, and the like.

I have the name of an attorney in AZ that I know and trust. If the ramp operator continues to refuse access to the ramp, go to court, get an injunction to force the ramp operator to allow you to use the ramp (assuming your boat is appropriate for the ramp) and be done with it. What could ramp guy argue? Are there noise restrictions in the area? Is it up to him to protect you from launching your boat where the water may be too shallow? Or is the guy just a Napoleon with a ramp, sticking it to you? Forego a fill-up of two on the boat (for legal fees), get your injunction, and smile to the guy as you launch week after week knowing that he cannot do anything about it.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Hope it all works out. If you nip it in the bud this season you will be all set for '05.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Havasu marina.....

3 years ago you could launch anything, even a 51 Outerlimits with huge power
2 years ago you could only launch a powerboat below 36'
now you can only launch a powerboat if your are below 32' (might be 30')

The manager of the marina is a complete ass. He has some personal vendetta against these boats, and it's been geting worse. I was going to buy a house in Havasu last year to keep my boat at (33' V-bottom) Now I refused to buy there because of the B.S. at the marina. Yes there are other ramps there, but they are not sheilded from the wind or water like the marina is. These other ramps are shallow--where you can damage your boat.

Lake Havasu is finally waking up!!!!! They are realizing that when people don't come from California, Nevada and other states, they are losing alot of money. Arizona is actually persuing this. I think over 65% of the homes there are bought by California residents. That # is declining because of the crap at the marina. Until that crap gets fixed, I don't spend my money there.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

I had my assistant do some research on the status of concession contracts in Arizona. There are several contracts expiring and changes being made. Has your specific contract expired and a new contract been put into place with limitations? I don't have the time this week to look into it.

A lot of changes have already taken place. You may be finding out about changes that were recently made to the contract with your marina. If that's the case you have an uphill battle.


http://www.doi.gov/ocl/2004/Concessions.htm

Here is what an attorney would like to know:

1.) Who is subcontracted to negotiate the concession/lease contracts in Arizona?

Answer:

Working with these firms (Pricewaterhouse Coopers, Economic Research Associates, Booz Allen Hamilton, and Dornbush Associates) and their subcontractors, the NPS has focused on developing professional and competitive prospectus documents that present the business opportunities for visitor services that exist in the national parks.


2.) What "act" gives them power to put such concessions in place?

Answer:

P.L. 105-391 established the National Park Service Concessions Management Advisory Board. The role of the Advisory Board is to advise the Secretary and the National Park Service on matters relating to the management of concessions, including policies and procedures, and ways to make National Park Service concession programs more cost-effective, efficient, and less burdensome.

3.) When does the board meet? (Important because they usually have hearings only at these meetings. Until then you have to wait)

Answer:

The Advisory Board meets three times annually. Its next meeting will be early this summer (2004) (which has just recently passed unfortunately) Next meeting in probably October. You would want to attend this with representation. As in the past, the Advisory Board will hold all but one of its public meetings in the field so smaller concessioners and others will have a better opportunity to attend. Once a year it meets here in Washington, D.C., which occurred this year in early March.

4.) The kicker: "We believe that the preferential renewal exception in the law as written creates a reasonable balance between providing for competition and assuring that visitor services are provided in all of our park areas where these services are necessary and appropriate". What does this new provision mean?

Answer:

"Preferential renewal exceptions" can allow renewal with exceptions. They can allow in this case certain types of boats to launch and certain types not to. They "could" make issues surrounding noise, speed, lack of funds for patrol etc. So if they exclude your type boat by law then you have to try to change the laws to be in your favor. That takes time and money.

I don't want to get your undies in a bunch but "they" control your ramp and it's provisions. You need to have an attorney obtain the specifics of the contract to your ramp and read it to you and go from there. I can tell you this will be either simple as phkynlawyer inferred or very difficult.

REMEMBER YOU HAVE BOTH STATE AND FEDERAL LAWS TO DEAL WITH.

I personally don't like to speculate on "what if" scenerios.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

The marina's lease is for another 10 yrs and they are NOT fullfilling their responsibilities to the public for the ramp.

Too many people are complaining about this problem. It's actually the state (Arizona) that is trying to make the marina do their public service.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Ok so if it's not a contract renewal issue then we have an issue with the "operational clause".

The it is very simple. File a lawsuit against the marina for discriminatory practices on state owned land.

They will loose their ramp license and hopefully somebody will want to acquire it. What they are doing could be cause for criminal action as well. The State may be trying to "force" them to comply with their contractual obligations to the public at large. They could loose their lease on the land for their entire marina too. That would put them out of business and they would probably never get a State concession contract again.

A "nice" letter from an attorney (explaining what I just mentioned) to the marina could improve your boating season very quickly!

This is no different than discrimination of race, color or creed as it's on state land. Everybody has equal rights unless there are provisions to specifically exclude your type of boats. If that is the case they must post it in a notorious location for the public to see. No sign>? They are in trouble.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

While I appreciate your interest, you really can't think it's "very simple" as you state, do you? that is absurd. This problem has been going on for 2-3 years now. The city of Lake Havasu is just getting involved, but it's actaully the state that is trying to rectify the situation.

There are aslo alot of other factors as well that you (and I) don't know. I do know that there is limited areas where there can be new launchramps. Some of the land is state owned and some is federal land. Also, the marina is owned by the Mccollough (spelling??) family who at one timed owned I think all of Havasu. It gets deeper and deeper in the B.S., but it's NOT going to an easy battle.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Agreed. I didn't have much info to go on. It's not good to speculate. My apologies.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

No apologies needed, I appreciate your input/concern. It's just not going to be easy.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Sorry I didn't post more info at the beginning of this thread. I asked for attorney references here because on the other forum the Havasu Marina monitors that board to see what we are up to.

I'll try to be as brief as possible with all of the pertinent information. Here goes:

Havasu Marina Inc. is a privately run business operating on land owned by the State of Arizona. They have a 50 year lease/concession contract with the state that started in 1965. Their current lease runs out in 10 years.

Until recently performance boaters have been able to launch there without any problems whatsoever. As of 2002 (approximately,) the marina started to deny performance boaters the ability to launch for various reasons. Those reasons typically are 1) boats are too "loud" 2) boats are too "long." To put it nicely the marina manager is a prick and an *******.

Being denied access at Havasu Marina poses a problem for us as there aren't any viable options in Lake Havasu to launch our boats. And I'm serious when I say this. The public ramps just don't cut it.

The marina is also starting a policy of no boats permitted to launch louder than 86 decibles (state law) on September 15th, 2004. Currently on their website they won't allow boats longer than 32ft to launch. I've even called to verify this.

Fortunately for us, the marina is operating on state land with a concession contract. I have a copy of the lease which prompted all of this. We have started a letter writing campaign asking the AZ Land Dept. to look into this. The concession contract states that the concessionaire is to provide a launch ramp for public use. The Land Dept. replied back to me "the concessionaire is without authority to restrict public use, without good cause, of the marina to launch watercraft." The state is suppose to notify the marina of their responsibilites according to the contract. My concern is the "without good cause." I'm sure the marina is going to fight this arguing that noise and length are a safety hazard at the ramp.

The other problem with their policies is how they aribitrarily and inconsistently try to enforce them. And it gets even more complicated. Suffice it to say that we have a battle and I'm preparing to escalate it to the next level which is to hire a lawyer. I'm not fighting this alone as many performance boaters will be and have been affected.

Phknlwyr - I do want to contact the attorney that you know. And please put in a good word for us :D PM me his contact information. I have copies of the lease/contract, my correspondence to the state as well as copies of a dozen others (and counting) who have written to the state.

Here are some links to the other threads regarding Havasu Marina:

Havasu Marina 1

Havasu Marina 2

Havasu Marina 3

Havasu Marina 4

Havasu Marina 5

Havasu Marina 6

The last thread link talks about our response from the AZ State Land Dept.

Thanks for everyones time and support on this. We aren't going to let them win. :hothead: :D

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Phknlwyr - check your PM's. I sent you my contact information. Please have your attorney friend contact me asap.

Thanks for your help.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

For what it's worth. I have known Art (Lakeracer) for a number of years. He is a very standup guy and I know if he is this serious about this thing then it is worth all of our attention. Good luck Art!

Gary Solomons

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Thanks Gary. It's nice to know that I have friends in far away places. :drink: Gotta love the performance boating community - we stick together! :D

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

TTT

Sorry guys, I need to get a reply from Phknlwyr...hopefully.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

ttt

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

Many thanks to Phknlwyr for contacting me and forwarding my information to his associate here in Phoenix. Hopefully this problem will go away soon.

Re: Attorney needed in the AZ area
 

It better, I for one will NOT spend any $$$ at Havasu or Arizona until this B.S. is fixed. I also know alot of people who feel the same way.