Oil Lbs question
 

:eek: OK i have most of the bugs worked out but i still think it is going to be a shakedown summer. I am running a melling HV pump and a 16 qt pan. I set the mains at .003 and the rods at .0028 + or - .0001 or .0002 and i am a little concerned about the oil pressure i am running. i am running a 540 with 9.7:1 with afr alum heads. i have decent oil pressure when i am cruising. When it is cold (60lbs) or just up to temp i am running about 20 lbs idle . I did put the the higher pressure relief spring the pad and i originally used Havoline 10-40 non synthetic oil for the break in period on the engine. When i run it kinda hard for about 10 min or so the pressure drops down to 10lbs or less at idle some times bouncing off of 0. I know my cooler is a little on the small side (any one have a bigger one i can buy) So i switched to 20/50 on the oil.. I still have the same #'s/problem? Am i missing something major here? Do i need to pull the motor and tighten up the clearances? I do not want to fry the crank and even worse the valve train. My pressure sender is right in the pad by the remote filter adapter. I put a 2nd mechanical one in the upper back passage in the block just as a verification that my original one was calibrated correctly. My oil cooler is only about 8/10 inches long and it runs power steering through it also. Any suggestions here?

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

What is your oil temp?

When I switched to Mobil-1 v-twin 20/50 I picked up 10psi at hot idle 240F oil temp and saw about 10degree less oil temp when running hard.

Expensive but not too bad at 50 hour changes.

Your oil cooler sounds way too small for 600hp

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Clearences may be slightly generous, for having high oil pressure readings. I think the 540 motor likes generous clearences, but it will show on pressure gage. Pressure is generated by the difficulty that oil flows thru bearings to journals.

You have a 330 oil cooler, it sounds like. Magnum one is longer, but still 2 ". You'll need 3" or 3 1/2" by about 22", depending if you want to retain 1 1/4" slip on hose nipples or go to 1" NPT. Teague make a large one; mine is Eddie marine; 3"X22" combo with 1 1/4" hose nipples. Brackets extra...

You will need to have oil temp gage, to know when you no longet have an oil cooler issue. This is where I woud start; getting a baseline/starting point temp, then change cooler, etc., 'till you are down around 200-ish.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I boat in warm water mostly, running about 600hp I tried a combo cooler pictured and then went with the Teague offshore cooler (red one). Bought bronze fittings from marine supply store. Very happy with the results. May be too much for cold water areas without oil t-stat. Cooler was about $470 i think + separate $99 power steering cooler.

As Stingray mentioned u must know your oil temp. I measure mine in pan, run about 240-260 when running hard. 5700rpm

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I know i need a temp guage and i put a couple of extra fillings in the pan for just such a incident. can you sned me the pics that you posted [email protected]

Which cooler is gooing to do a better job for the price a eddie marine, teague, or a hardin?

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Teague is best around for max cooling, It makes two passes thru a 4" cooler. Combo coolers are fine depending on what temp you are at now. BTW dont buy a chromeed cooler like I did, it reduces efficiency somewhat.

Bottom line, you need to know your oil temp now before you go much further. If you are pushing 280-290* then the Teague is the way to go.

Sent u picture

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Is the Eddie marine 22" model 3" in dia? i am thinking this is the easiest way to go. is their cooler comparable to Hardin?

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I run the Teague cooler on a 509 cu in 600hp motor. I never see more than 240 in the pan after extended hard runs, I don't have a sensor after the cooler since I couldn't get the gauge to move much.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I run the Eddie Marine cooler on 540s making 600+. It does the job very well. At about 230.00 (plus 50.00 for the mount brackets) it's the best deal out there. My clearences were closer to .002 on rods. Oil pressure with the same Melling oil pump is 60 cruising at 4000rpm with 220 degree oil, idle is 40lbs. With closer clearences I'm running thinner oil. You need a good flow of oil past the bearings to cool them. I broke in the engines with 10-40 then switched to 15-50 Mobil 1.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Its not your clearences. Even though that sounds like alot it should carry 20-25 psi at idle unless your oil is way into the mid 200 degree range. If it was cleasrence the thicker oil would have helped,I e-mailed you my phone # as i would like to talk to you as i have really close set-up,Smitty (other than i have huge off shore cooler)

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I run a 1000 HP cooler from CP performance that has a built in thermostat. At a normal cruise speed I see 200 in the pan and after a long pass at 6400 RPM the temp gets to 230. I would guess you are getting pretty high oil temps and that is causing the low pressure.

Craig

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Don't change your clearances, I just went through that. My 540(600hp) was originally built with tight mains. I didn't build it so i'm not exactly sure what they were but my builder said they were in spec, but on the tight side.
It had great oil pressure, but only lasted one run before Mr. squeaky visited. After that he opened them up to .003 which drastically changed the oil pressure went from 80-90lbs to 50-60lbs.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I have a new sbc with a 7qt pan and and a hv/hp pump and I always see 80psi hot / cold / idle or 4500 rpms, three runs and sounds great....

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I am running a 540 at 610 bhp with the Eddie Marine combo cooler as well. I don't know the clearances, but I run about 80-90 psi when oil temp is cold, and it drops to 50-60 when hot (SAE 40 wt). Oil temperature hangs out below 230 on hard runs, and will cool off to below 180 in the pan after maybe 5 minutes of idling in.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

i ordered a eddie marine cooler and i am considering 50w mobile one sythetic cuz i now have about 15 hrs on it. is there a good source for 50W? I do not have a thermostat, I took it out yesterday and i was just cringing off of idle....... I ordered a NPT 22 inch cooler so i will have a few bucks in fittings and they said they cannot get it to me for a extra week. Dose NE1 have a link for decent straight 50 W syn oil, anyone?

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Mobil-1 20W50 (V-twin) is in fact a straight weight 55 that performs like a 20w50.

Have you checked your oil temps yet?

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

A high flowing oil filter will give you a few pounds back at idle. A merc, K&N, or racing filter. The valovine sync oil treatment will give you a few lbs also.

I don't know about motorcycle oil. Most motorcycles have a wet clutch. To make the clutch work they have a different additive package than what is recommended for a boat motor. It is like putting airplane oil in a car. After a few thousand miles you cam is gone.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

No i haven't checked temps yet. I was going to get a temp package and realized that i definitely need a bigger cooler. So i am patiently awaiting that. Until then i am just taking it easy. but am still nervous at idle. I just hope i can make it through the season and then look at mains and rods next winter. I have a hard time believing in can fry that much oil that quickly???!?!?! Even though it is not the best oil it can't be that bad.... ? What is the oil pathway in a gen 6 block for oiling? what is the last thing in line and that am i going to fry if i run it a little low on oil lbs? In theory every thing is still getting oil... the high volume part is pushing it somewhere....

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I have been through a simular situation this year with high oil temps on a fresh rebiuld. I have a carberated 502 with 550 horse. Oil temp was between 260 and 270 at WOT. Installed a 3 x 22 hardin combo cooler and it dropped to 240 with the sender after the cooler. I was using valv 20/50 conventional oil. Switched to M1 15/50. M1 will handle temps past 300. Oil temp now is the same at 240 with pressure staying the same with both oils. 60 lbs at WOT and 20 on a hot idle. Water temp is 150 at WOT and 160 on a hot idle. Lake michigan is 60 degrees.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Was the oil pressure better before your first hard run? You may have heated the oil to much and broke it down. I would change it right away for some straight 40 and take it easy till you get some oil temp gauges in there. Trust me on this one I already wasted a motor this year from high oil temps.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Your 16qt pan, is in a box style pan or is a sump type pan? If it is a sump style if you can give me the depth of the sump,length, and width I can figure capacity for you. It is always best NOT TO USE 90 DEGREE FITTINGS when plumbing the oil lines. HV pump will work just fine in your application but we like to use a std volume pump and shim it around .125". This puts the pressure around 45 to 50#'s at idle and around 60 to 70#'s at WOT.

Chris

Stef's Performance

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

240 seems awful high for a 550 hp motor with a big cooler.Obviously the mor hp you make the more heat is generated in the oil. What kind of block bypas valves do you have,if you don't have the diesel 30 lb valves maybe they are opening and not all your oil is going thru the cooler,Smitty

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

If your running hydraulic rollers then the first thing to get damaged will be your main bearings if their isn't enough oil film to keep a barrier between them and the crank. Its a bandaid but i would put some 60 wt racing oil in it if you insist on running it with marginal oil pressure,Smitty

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I had an race shop build the motor and dont know what block bypass valves are. The same shop built the same motor 10 yrs ago and it held up fine. I would be interested on how to find out about the bypass valves though. Should I ask the builder or can I find out another way. I thought 240 was high for the cooler that I have now also. I spent about 750 in the cooler and all the replumbing for 20 degrees. Thanks

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Not sure what block your using but gen 5/6 502 blocks have bypass relief valves on oil filter boss area under the remote block adapter,when people put hi output/high volume oil pumps on they open too easy and some of the oil bypasses the cooler and filter so even though you have a real big cooler some of the oil could be bypassing the cooler. Some people plug the bypas and use a racing filter w/built in bypass(fram hp series/k&N etc) or you get 6.5 turbo diesel bypas valves that open at 30 lbs differential instead of 5-10 lbs like stock ones.You could do this under 50$ in parts,Smitty

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Ehhhh, don't Merc marine blocks have the (2) 30 psi check valves?

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Does anyone have a baseline GPM volume @70#pressure,220 degrees,BBC?Also,a formula for finding GPM requirements for various orifice sizes,[ex.lifter spray bar,spring oilers,etc.]

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

As an engine guy and a builder, thought I would chime in here. When building any gen 5 or 6 BBC's any good engine builder should knock the oil bypass valves out during the machining and replace them after cleaning during reassembly. If they don't, sometimes a lot of metal can be trapped in the bypass passages and make its way into a fresh motor and do some real damage! Also sometimes, debris can lodge a bypass valve slightly open and cause an oil pressure drop. Another thing to be careful of in marine engine buildup is that when clearances are opened up to the .0025 to .0035 range s that the rod side clearances are held to about .015 to .020 max. The reason for this is that the mains are pressure fed first in the late Gen BBC engines and greater clearances with to wide side clearances will let the pressure push the oil out between the rods and crank journal ends and hence a pressure drop of more than normal. Oil pressure will naturally drop some from overheated oil, 250 to 280 range, but a drop to 10 psi at hot idle is indicating that more than oil temp is the cause here. High volume pumps also tend to drop oil pressure about 15 to 20%, but the higher volume is better for getting rid of heat which is a large part of the oils job. We set our clearances at about .002 mains and .0025 rods and rely on straight round journals and rods to protect the bearings. Most marine motors properly assembled and built will not need clearances above this with the right bearings and oil. I like a pump Melling 10777 or 10778 set 60-70psi @50000rpms loaded, idles @35-45lbs warm @650-750 rpms. Don't overpressure a marine engine oil system, it will push the oil thru to quickly,not allow the oil to remove enough heat from the parts, and increase oil comsumption. Proper oil cooling is a must and the small cooler you are describing here is too small for your horsepower and cubic inch size. Cooler oil will help bring the pressure up slightly but it still sounds like something else here is not quite right. Hope you get everything squared away and the motor keeps purring along.
Just my two cents!

Ray @ Raylar

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Tech Tip: "Oil Filter & Oil Cooler Bypass Valves"

Excerpt from Speed Reading written by Wade Hajek of GM Performance Parts Gen V and Gen VI big-block crate engines come with two oil pressure bypass valves installed in the engine blocks. Both of these valves are rated at 11 psi pressure differential. One valve is for the oil filter and the other is for the production oil cooler. If you install an aftermarket oil cooler or remote oil filter that attaches to the oil filter pad on the engine block, you should be aware that you need to change the oil filter bypass valve in the engine block. The aftermarket oil lines add resistance which will cause the bypass valve to bypass the aftermarket oil cooler and/or oil filter all the time. Obviously, if the cooler and filter are bypassed the oil will be dirty and hot. Your engine could run hotter and could be damaged by dirt in the oil. If you choose to use an aftermarket cooler or remote oil filter that attaches to the pad, you should change the bypass valve to one with a higher differential pressure rating. A good choice would be GM# 25161284 which is rated at 30 psi. Remove the valve that is closest to the crankshaft and replace it with the new valve. Press the new valve into the engine block and stake it in three places. You should note that the bypass valves don't need to be changed if you use a production oil cooler which uses the production holes in the engine block and you don't use a remote oil filter. Also, if you use an adapter that just angles the filter for clearance you don't need to change the bypass valves.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I have read that they do (from other members),i do know if you buy a crate motor it has standard 11 psi valves,i couldn't find anything that says in stone that merc puts 30's in. A buddy of mine cooked a gen 5 502 because of std valves in his boat BUT i don't know the origin of his block,Smitty

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

FWIW My stock mercruiser 502 gen V's had the 11lb bypasses.

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Ok i did put one high pressure filter bypass in and i blocked off the factory cooler lines. i had decent pressure before.

Dose NE1 here have a used Alpha lower housingprefix OC 1989 model they want to get rid of. I have abuddy that has taken a screwing for 3900 from a local marina and he is out of money and the drive is still a problem child. email me [email protected]

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Im not sure what kind of bypass valves are installed in my motor. It is a mid 90's 502 that has been bored. The engine builder says it is a GM racing block and not a mercruiser. I have a remote oil fiter. If I take out one of the plugs on the filter housing and screw in a mechanical oil pressure guage, wouldn't that tell me if the bypass valves are proper? Or will the pressure be totally different up there normally. I do know that some oil is flowing because the oil lines get very hot from the cooler to the filter. Thanks

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

To simplify the bypass issue I just went with a new block off that didn't have a bypass. My oil pressure sender in the filter mounting pad on the downstream side of the filter. I change my oil and filter often enough I don't sweat the bypass being eliminated. Those block adaptors are pretty cheap.

Craig

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

:mad: :hothead: OK so i am pretty sure i fried the bearings cam and lifters. I can only get 55mph out of it after i put the new cooler on it and changed to mobile 1 synthetic 15 w 50 (+10lbs change in pressure). The past three weekends i put the boat in and ideled 1000 ft to a local sandbar and sat and had a few beers and ideld back. the oil pressure never dropped below 30lbs cuz it never got hot. I now cannot get over 55 mph... i am going to try a plug in the bypass to see what pressure it and i am not going to look at it till the 4th weekend and then the power is coming out. to get redone. 94 mph to 55mph in 18hrs of run time........


there has to be a club, or there should be one, for people who fried their motors idioticaly..... kinda like the Darwin Awards, killing your self in a idiotic manner before you procreate......................


What should we call the club? :(

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

If you fried bearings there should be something in your filter. This doesn't sound good, but some simple checks may help to save you a bunch of work. Is the motor knocking or is there valve train clatter? If the cam is wiped you will likely hear clatter. Another check is to put a mechanical oil pressure guage on to verify the electric. I have found most electric guages to be way off in terms of accuracy. Sorry about your bad luck!! Hopefully it won't hurt ($$$) to bad!

Craig

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

I did put a mechanical on it.... the readings are the same. :( :(
One rocker arm is nocking slightly and there is a very slight loose sound just like something isnt quite right. not a knock.... i have blown up stuff before and this dosent sound like it.
So I am going to pull the intake today and check the cam and put a freeze plug in the bypass. Maybe i can get buy with just cam and lifters for the rest of season so can freshen next winter. I thought i did everything right........ with the exception of a oil temp guage. It was fine up here untill the water temps warmed up. In 43 degree water everything was fine. And it is not bad luck, it is my own ignorance for not getting far enough in front of the curve on this stuff.....

will post more later......

Re: Oil Lbs question
 

Ok so i puled the motor and put a frost plug in the pressure bypass on the block. i had 65 lbs on cold idle and i ideled around for a hour at 1500-1700 rpm and i had 25 psi warm idle and 40 psi WOT hot. i decided to check health on the motor and make a couple of top end runs. 1/2 tank of fuel and me in the boat and i can only get 75 mph :( :( .......... I went about 10 miles each way and now i the pressure guage is bouncing under 10lb again. At times it looks to be zero at idle???
:( :(

I am going to wait till after this comming weekend and pull the motor to regrind the crank.

what am i doing wrong here?
I now have 15w 50 mobile one in ithe motor. Am i generating that much heat that the oil cannot come down in temp? I did have a slight nocking and i found out i just had one loose rocker arm. i didn't put enough on the jam nut. i tightened it up and we are all good but i am still not getting my top end numbers.

when i am ideling hot it dose not sound good. it sounds bad... kinda loose, but only when i am in the water. on the trailer it sounds normal.

The water temps here are now between 75 and 80....

what should i hold my clearances to on my bearings next time? i am thinking more to the .002 to .0022 side on the mains


I was really getting frustrated and disheartend....... I was to the point of "give me 26k for it and you can have it"