Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Thanks Mark.

maybe a dumb question... but does the paint make a difference?

(On a block I would use laquer thinner or something to get the paint off... but I suspect that it doesn't matter on a cast iron manifold.)

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

there are no dumb questions in this forum except....

Paint will help with corrosion, and make the gaskets stick like crazy, if you were looking to disassemble any time soon, then no paint might be better. For the long run, paint helps IMO

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Paint it is. :D

The rest should come today and I will be re-assembling by tomorrow.

Some people say double the exhaust gaskets.

Ever heard that one?

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

It's a band aid for non-flat surfaces. I highly recommend re-torquing the manifold bolts after the first heat cycle and then again after about three. You will be amazed how much they will move. (same for intake manifold)

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Hey Mark... in the meantime I got an email from Mcollinstn saying that the paint has to go. :(

Now I'm conflicted.
You are both smart.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

I never had a problem with paint being there, it helps stop rust running down the side of the block. Correct torquing and re-torquing is the main issue with manifolds IMO.

Maybe someone else with chime in with their opinion, or maybe you could call the manufacturer and get the final word.

I can only go with my experience, and am always willing to learn as I have on many occasions through this forum.

I don't believe it will be an issue either way.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Thanks for the response.

Have a good weekend.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Just hung up the phone with Dennis Moore on his cellie.

He says to take a file to any wierd paint drips or anything... but other than that... he says bolt those beyotches on and go boating.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Fund Razor,

Did he say to file the paint off or just check to make sure the surface was flat.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Flat, I believe.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Thanks,

I got the same manifolds out of aluminum...

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Actually... he didn't even mention a straight edge.

He just said that if there are any paint runs or sags to file them down.

Kind of a drag though... as much as he knows about performance he doesn't know too much about shipping.

When I ordered he said that they would come Friday. (today)
One came yesterday, (thursday) when I asked if the rest were back ordered... he said no.. they must be on a different truck.

So... they didn't come today... so I called DHL.

They are still in transit and won't be here until Tuesday.

I think that I would rather have not gotten ONE of FOUR in one week and the other three the next week.

So... when Dennis says "Friday before the holiday"
He means "You'll get one... but the rest won't come until after the holiday."

My advice to anyone ordering from Dennis would be add a week to what he tells you and if he says that he sent the whole order at once.... well... um... sure.

I would have been happier if he would have just told me that they would be here next week so I could have made other plans.
This is my busy season at work. I am trying to get a 7 hour broadcast produced and on the air by next Sunday.

Oh well.

I'll just wait a few days Moore.

The bummer is that this pushes my launch back to sometime after June 10.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Fund Razor,

Bummer about the shipping. I don't think its his fault. DHL actually lost half of my order. I got 1 set 2 days early and I think DHL still lists the other set in transit to me. Dennis was real helpful and sent out another kit so I'm good. I wasn't terribly impressed w / DHL tracking. They kept telling me they could update the delivery date the next time the box was scanned. Problem is the last time I checked, it was last scanned in California and is probably already installed on someone elses boat.

Anyway, not to overkill this question, did he say to get rid of the paint on the surface between the manifold and riser. I actually have paint chipped off PART of the surface of 1 of the risers.

This area did kill at least 1 of my old engines.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

You are right. I didn't mean to be TOO harsh on the guy. I know that he is a stand up guy and I don't mean to bash too much. My only request of Dennis would be to be a little less optomistic when he gives shipping times. That's all. I have a lot of respect for the guy. I would have been fine if he told me next week. I just would have planned differently.

DHL... another story.

Anyway... here's what I am hearing about the paint:

Dennis: "They are ok painted. If you see any paint drips or sags or anything you can go ahead and file that area down. You do not have to remove the paint."

McCollinstn: "Remove the paint. Use a heat gun and a tool that will not dig in to the iron. Then use a straight edge and file the mating surface until flat. Flat flat. Then coat both mating surfaces and the gasket (both sides) with Perma Tex brand Copper Spray a Gasket. Let that tack up for 20 minutes and then install."
He also explained the history of the file. Modern Marvels meets email. :D

(MC is a very specific dude. I love that.)


And of course there are the folks on this thread.

Like Wobble. ("It's all about the torque and the re-torque. Paint Schmaint.")

I liked this answer because it had much less steps than McCollinstn. His answer had me buying something called a "12 inch bastard mill file." And learning how to use it.

That sounded like a lot of work for a new manifold. But I'll bet 50 bucks that his don't leak. :D

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

You mean that your OLD riser caused a failure not your NEW riser......

right???

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Ditto about DHL. If i was to bet, I would bet that it is DHL's fault. About 1 year ago, parts for work were shipped from Europe to the jobsite. We were told 3 days or so delivery, depending on customs. 3 weeks goes by, and we track it down. Finally we call the DHL hub in Austin TX, and they were sitting there for 2 weeks!!! They said the packages were too big for a standard truck, so they did not deliver them. At this point, I was a wee bit ticked, and asked why they did not call to tell us that!

The kicker is, we got a flatbed, drove up there, and the packages were 5 boxes about 2 ' cubed. I guess thats too big for DHL...

Had we never called DHL, I'd bet they'd still be sitting there.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Fund Razor / jmherbert,

Track your shipment and Dennis should take care of you...He did for me. If it looks like the package is in the same place for a long time...Its lost. DHL called and tried to help but their tracking system is just not there. They kept telling me to wait till it was scanned. If a package is moving, it will be scanned at least once a day. My package sat in the same place for more than a week.

Thanks for the info on the paint. I am still building my new engines so the problem was clearly with the old manifolds/risers. As far as the seal, I usually listen to everyones opinions, read every book I can find, and decide what to do from there.

A good quality Powder coat will probably need to be filed off. The epoxy stuff we use, I can hit with a hammer and It will not chip off. (Salt Water won't have a chance but it's not going help my oil temp) I found a composite seal from Osco I like that is a low durometer stainless composite for the riser gasket. Its not going to leak! I will to re-torque after several runs too.

Still want to know if you pick up any top end with the new stuff :)

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Thanks I.T.

I am curious about the top end too. (Not why I'm doing the job of course.)

I actually thought about switching to aluminum intakes while the boat was down and the blocks were partially torn down, but I don't want to change too much stuff at once. I kind of want to see what the difference is with just the manifold/riser change.

I am thinking that these 21 year old manifolds have gained MUCHO weight over the years. Funny thing is that the boat is only 19. The boat is an 87. The manifolds and risers are date stamped 1985.

Thanks for the DHL input too guys.

I don't think that mine are lost. I just think that Friday was not a realistic estimate. I would be very surprised if they don't come on Tuesday. And if they don't... I'll get with DHL.

At least as of Friday DHL could find them in their system and it said that they were in transit and expected delivery is 5/30.

Back on the paint issue: I really don't want to put a bunch of labor into prep on these bad boys... but I am considering removing the paint.

Probably doesn't matter, and that's why I got different opinions.

It is not a high quality powder coat type paint, it's just some spray paint to cover the iron. Could probably wipe it off the mating surface with laquer thinner.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

This is interesting:

My OMC manifold logs have a second (lower) hose outlet/inlet at the bottom front of the manifold below the main hose inlet for the water coming from the thermostat riser. It's just capped.

The new ones don't have that opening at all.

The old ones only used 10 out of 12 manifold mounting studs because the forward most threaded hole in the block was covered by that hose connection. So... the old manifolds were all missing the forward-most stud.
All were bolted on with 5 out of 6.

Now I am ordering 4 new studs so that I can bolt them in with all 6.

Those guys who are very concerned with torque sequence and warpage will probably have a cow that one stud was completely missing in each manifold. :D

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

The need to be tightened center out just like heads, but do it with more steps. Many do not torque exhaust, the OMC spec is fairly low, 23-SB 24-454 26-502

Phil

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Yeah OMC is pretty low on the exhaust torque. I think that my OMC shop book says 25. Hard to get 25 on a needle style torque wrench. :D

I think that I had them at about 25-30 last time I did manifold gaskets.

I did end up buying a 12 inch mill bastard cut file as Mc suggested. That guy knows metal like most of us know breathing. I am gonna lightly file them as needed.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

For the record... the rest showed up today.

No funny business.

Now if I can get some time to start the prepping....

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Too bad...you missed getting them really by only 1 shipping day.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

It's ok. I have been swamped at work anyway.

After this weekend my schedule gets better until September.

Still shooting for the weekend of June 10 maybe if everything goes well.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Well, there is SOME funny business.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/305-3...temZ4643886984

"Comes with Gaskets and Riser attaching bolts."
And the bolts are shown in photos, too.

No bolts showed up.... which I needed because mine are rusted junk.

No bolts in either kit.

Now I get to call Dennis and wait another week for bolts.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

These.

Shown on ad... not in box.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Fund, they look like plated bolts, you might want to go buy some stainless hardware and get the job done before the weekend.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Fund,

Suprisingly, mine were probably re-usable. I wanted stainless so I ordered them from mcmaster carr.

I got the rest of my stainless for the engine project from

totallystainless.net

They would have had the riser bolts but I had already ordered them from mcmaster carr.

Was the box sealed, maybe the bolts fell out.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

You make a good point Mark.

But I was bummed because they were supposed to come with.

I agree that I would be happier with stainless.

I have a couple of the old ones that are good enough to take bolt shopping. :D

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Boxes were sealed.

Maybe this is a blessing anyway.
If they were in the box I would have used the plated bolts without thinking much about it. I would rather have stainless after seeing them break off in my ratchet from rust.

I was checking out the manifolds closely last night, and putting some paint on them, and I noticed that the diameter of the exhaust passage is slightly larger than the stock exhaust passage. That was a positive thing to see.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Called Dennis, just on a whim... after all... the ad clearly said attachment bolts included.

Dennis figured that since they didn't ship with the kits, that "they must have been out of them" when they put the kits together and that I should go buy them from a hardware store.

I realize that they are fairly cheap bolts.

But I think that it sucks that they were shipped without them, that I paid for them, and that now I have to go find some on my own.

Not impressive.

I think that he should change his ebay ad to say "attachment bolts NOT included."

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Learn something new everyday,

I guess he's a pr*ck.

I sent him an email because I felt that he should change his ad:

"Hi Dennis,

I just wanted to suggest that since your ad for this item clearly and boldly states that attachment bolts for the risers are included, but in reality the kits ship WITHOUT any attachment bolts at all... you should change the language to read attachment bolts NOT included so that guys who order kits know that they are gonna be SOL for bolts before they waste a week waiting for complete kits.
Not really about the money... but I am not at all happy that I am on my own to get bolts after your language was SO specific about the bolts being included, right down to a photo of the bolts that don't come.

Thanks.

Maybe a small issue to you. Not to me.

Instead of opening the box and finding the bolts that I PAID FOR... I have a new project hunting down bolts."

That was it. Nothing but a suggestion that he make the ebay ad match the actual items. And a simple statement that I wasn't happy. That was it.

His response:

"I am sorry you are so upset about some bolts that you didn't get. Life must be really challenging for you if you let something like this make you so unhappy! Most mechanics wouldn't find this small challenge worth sending an E-Mail...I guess you are quite a novice when it comes to working on any mechanical projects."

So... the guy is a public relations expert.

The point was not that having to go buy bolts because Dennis ripped me off was such a challenge.

The point was that people should advertise their items correctly.

So.... now I am a novice because this guy doesn't ship what he promises.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Its false advertisement, pure and simple. The least he could of done is send you the bolts.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Guess that will knock the positive feedback number down a few ticks...

Sorry to hear the response you got...Still hope the stuff you did get works out for you. Shouldn't cost you more than $20 for good stainless...And you'll be better off.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

So I responded to Dennis:

"Dennis,

While I appreciate the fact that it's easier to insult someone than to take personal responsibility for an error...
This is not a mechanical issue. It is a customer service issue.

I simply suggested that you make the ad match what you sell.

I can live with the reputation that I was less than happy when you did not send the kits complete as advertised... as long as you can live with the reputation that you ship incomplete kits and then insult people when they suggest that you probably shouldn't advertise things that you don't ship.

If I have to be one of the people in this situation, I guess that I am ok being the guy who didn't like getting an incomplete order."

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

I didn't even complain to ebay....
thought it was a man to man kind of thing.

I felt that it was within my rights to express the opinion that he should make the ad match the actual product. That was it.

Didn't call him names.
Didn't threaten anything.
Didn't even call him dishonest.

I just suggested that the ad match the product. Period.

Apparently that was simply unacceptable.

If I was trying to be in business for more than the next month, I would have sent a guy his bolts two-day air if he let me know that he had not rec'd all that was promised in 899.90 worth of kits.

Whatever. Not that big of a deal.

It was actually a bigger deal that Dennis handled it so poorly than it was that the bolts were shorted from the kits.

I'm over it. But my Dennis Moore story is what it is.

He didn't deserve to be slammed over the shipping.

But he OWNS this crappy customer service and false advertising badge. He earned it.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

In our business, I have used counter to counter at my expense ($100+) to ship in some cases a $2 part to keep a customer happy. Overnight would have probably been fine in this case.

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

I wasn't even sure that I was gonna use his bolts when I got ahold of him.
I just was curious how he would handle it. I had time to wait for ground.
Ground would have been fine.
Instead he told me to go to the hardware store to buy something that I had just bought from him, but didn't show up.

I am not very bummed over the bolts compared to the fact that I thought that I had found a good resource for future projects.

Instead I found one more guy who couldn't care less about his marine customers.

Being a small block guy who likes to do builds....
I actually thought about buying a copy of his book.

I've kind of chilled on that idea.

You reap what you sow in life.
I am pretty comfortable with what I have said to Dennis. I wasn't trying to be a hard azz at all.
I can only assume that if he has any wit about him he will have a moment later in the day when he says to himself "What was I thinking?"

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

I just ordered new manifold to block studs/nuts/washers from Go2Marine.com.

If they only send the studs, but short the nuts... do you think that they will ship them or tell me to go buy them locally? :D

My question is this:
Do these marine vendors think that we don't discuss them amongst ourselves?

Re: Exhaust Riser gasket change
 

Some must not at all...

I guess I am even happier that I bought Revolutions for mine. They even came with the bolts! Terry from Revolution also rapidly and politely answered all of the questions I had. Yes, they were more money, but that should not matter.

Another thing, I tend to work on these things either at night or on a weekend. If you are missing a part, you have to take time out of working on it and go buy it. On nights and weekends this is can be difficult or impossible. It can make a simple project turn into a nightmare.

We all don't have shops that have inventories of bolts and such that we can simply grab from a drawer.