454 parts selection ??'s
 

First post, please be nice :). Done some searching. GREAT forum here, lots of experts.

Collecting parts to build a mild 454 to replace a Gen IV 330HP Mag in an 87 FourWinns that has been raw water cooled all its life, has head head failure (corrosion) in the past, rebuilt twice before that and slowly rotting from the inside out.

Have some options on 454 parts available and looking for input / confirmation on best choices.

Block choices: 3999289 2 bolt or 14015445 4 bolt. (is 4 bolt really a no brainer selection?)

Head choices: 353049's or 14092360' (peanut port?). 049's the no brainer choice?

This is going to be a carbed, NON blower motor, recreationally used, sitting in front of a (don't laugh) Alpha drive until it breaks. It will get fresh water cooling and parts selection should be for long term durability.

I'd like max RPM. Moderate power (400HP?). The wish list includes JE forged pistons, Crane 134241 cam, stainless valves and roller rockers.

Do I 'need' a Forged crank? Should I stroke it? The first block I tore down has a BAD looking crank. Lots of scoring on 2 rod journals.

Any and all input welcome and encouraged.

I plan to use a local machine shop and balance the entire assembly. A crate 502 is overkill for the application and a budget killer!

Rick

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Rick, welcome to the board.
The first two things I would suggest, is to do a search in the forums on this topic of 330 HP upgrades. There is a wealth of info. Secondly, purchase Dennis Moore's book on Big Block Chey Marine Engines.

I will get a lot of disagreement here, but I have done what you are doing so I can talk with some experience.

Best choice is a 4 bolt main block, but a two bolt will be perfectly OK. Do not hesitate on the 2-bolt if in good condition and the price is right.

Head choice, the 049 is the better flowing head and a good head. However, you will neet to put some money in them for hardended seats, valve size increase, valve guides, etc,etc etc. I made 426 HP with the peanut ports. Acutually a set of World Products or Edelbrock heads will offer more value.

You do not need JE forged for 400 HP. The stock cast pistons will handle that, although some good hypernutectics or a set of Speed Pro forged would be better. If you have to purchase pistons, step up from the stock cast.

For a cam shaft, select your other components that you are going to use and get someone like Bob Maderra from Marine Kinetics to make a selection for you. He will provide you a stick that will match your components and application. Roller rockers are nice, will not add horsepower at this level but will add valve train stability. Also increase your push rod size.

You do not need a forged crank until about 500 HP. Just make sure your cast crank is in good condition, is machined well and you have your block lined bored. If your cast crank has been turned down over .010 get rid of it.

One last thing--- Don't expect miracles. You are going to throw a lot of money and time in this thing. I recommend buying a new engine from wwwrunsnew or a supplier like that. Remember you still need a better intake and exhaust system than the stock 330 HP.

Good Luck

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Thanks for the reply and direction.

I already own all of the parts options so looking to select best, build and sell off the rest when done.

Not looking for miracles or dyno numbers, looking for dead nuts solid parts choices, long term investment with some power gain over stock.

So the 049 heads have smaller valves? I haven't finished tearing the top ends down on the donors. Casting for casting wonder what choice is best?

That was my inclination on 2 bolt vs 4 bolt and forged vs. cast crank. Didn't know if there were hidden differences over the generations of BBC blocks.

What do people like for intakes and exhaust?

Other opinions?

Rick

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

No, the 049 do not have smaller valves, but most people have the larger valves installed for better results. I also have a set of peanut port heads on the shelf that have been machined for 2.17 intakes and 1.88 exhausts.

For intake manifold, I would try an Edelbrock dual plane "air Gap". There are many options on exhaust, it's whatever you can afford. Stay with the Mark IV ignition.

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Here's what I did to upgrade my 330hp.

The 496HO exhausts are a well kept secret and a bargin performance upgrade. Look online (here, ebay, hotboat, etc.) and you can find good used parts cheap. If I was into the bottom end I would have put in forged pistons, bumped compression up to 9.0:1, installed a Crane 134561 cam, shotpeened my 3/8" rods, and magnafluxed my cast crank. That would let me rev safely up to 5,500rpm and put out ~450hp.


The two smartest things I did were 1) got Dennis Moore's big block book and 2) asked ALOT of questions.

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

I just did what you are talking about but mine was a gen V. I had the block bored .030 over forged pistons speed-pro; all bolts are ARP, assembly was balanced, melling high volume oil pump, I am running a Crane 132561 cam, lifters 3/8 pushrods, gold roller rockers, crane billet steel timing set and Hardin marine valve covers, my cylinder heads are casting # 336781 they are large oval ports with 2.19in and 1.88ex with 10 degree retainers ported and flowed, running a eldelbrock performer rpm intake and 750cfm eldelbrock carb, revolution marine exhaust I will find out what it runs like this week-end. I have a total of about 3800.00 total in it

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

k24u, any results?

The 4 bolt block is stripped and at the machine shop. Couple spun rod bearings - bad crank, bad rods. Bores look OK but being checked.

Leaning towards the 049 heads vs the Peanut ports. Got a price of about $750 to completely go through them.

Shooting for 9:1 compression. Need a spare Alpha flywheel to do the balance job.

Looking at some 496 Aluminum manifolds now. Good / Bad? Can they take the salt? Says they have "water rails" so I assume that means they are setup for closed loop cooling.

Also looking for links for fresh water cooling from an online discounter.

Hope everyone is having fun this weekend and not breaking parts!

Rick

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

The first week-end I could only turn 4700rpm raised timing and installed a rpm-air-gap intake ran today boat will turn about 5000 and 70mph on speedo 4-blade bravo 1. I thnk it some more in it still tuning. It has a ton of mid-range power the boat is very quick and nimble it is also alot louder I am not running any mufflers just revolution exhaust and 4inch side exit sorry i haven't got back sooner but we have had bad weather and water.

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Rick,

The comments here are the best advice that exist, especially about the reading material. My thoughts are to make power with heads, intake, and exhaust to the maximum extent possible, and keep your cam as mild as possible to get your targeted horsepower. Cam is what makes the motors smooth or radical, and it is not hard to get well over 400hp with a basically stock cam.

I would used the forged pistons, steel crank, 4 bolt block and balance the rotating assembly. It MAY be a waste of some money, but with that choice you can later change out the cam and get close to 500 hp with little added cost, and my experience has been th stronger the parts, the easier it is on them when making lower HP levels. Give we all have this "more speed" disease, it is reasonable to assume you may want to do this later.

In this type application there is a LOT more power made by heads, intake, and exhaust than cam, but for just a small amount more than basic stuff you can have a motor that is close to bullet proof, and will have options to upgrade to much more power later with very little cost.

Opinions are like azz holes, everyone has one, and most stink, so that said, that is mine...

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

I have a set of 188 heads for sale {454mag,420 etc.} fresh with stainless Intake & Inconel exhaust valves. Never used since freshened.
Also have a 4340 4.25 crank.

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Good posts. Thanks. Always interesting to hear the results. Had a good long ride yesterday, so staying motivated on hte project.

Haven't heard anything on the block. Hope I don't have to strip down my backup cores.

Bought 496 manifolds and elbows last week. Even scored a spare set of manifolds, all brand new in the deal. About $800 for all.

Birddog, throw some prices out if you want...
or email direct rboiros at yahoo dot com (insert appropriate symbols).

Rick
($3.659 a gallon really sucks....)

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Revisiting this thread. Been on the slow track all summer. Block is bored 0.020. Found a forged crank for $60 (yes, sixty) and turned it 0.010/0.010.

Machinist is putting together an internal engine kit with forged pistons. Recommendation is a Melling marine grind # 22219 cam (224 intake and exhaust duration at .510 lift).

Went with the 049 heads. Still looking for 9:1 compression.

Any feedback on cam selection? I haven't been bale to find much info.

Thanks in advance.

Rick

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Check my first post on this thread. Call Bob Madera at Marine Kinetics, 586-654-8583 and do it right the first time. Also, take this important advice, change to a roller cam. With the poor quality of flat tappet lifters, and the reduced zinc and moly in motor oils flat tappet cams are becoming a real headache to keep healthy. I'm just trying to help you out!

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

OK. I will do that. Thanks again. Guess I was trying to take the easy way out... (And putting the responsibility on one shop for component selection / warranty).

You make an excellent point on lubrication. Two supporting pieces of evidence: local good (non chain) parts store guy into marine stuff said run valvoline racing oil. Many new oils (as you say) took out the 'good stuff'. Other piece of evidence is the 72 truck 454 I just disassembled with a severly worn cam and lifters rounded off on the bottom!

Rick

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

The Valvoline Racing oil recommendation is only partly correct. The Valvoline Racing that comes right off the shelf is not the stuff you want. The "good stuff" you usually have to order because it is not street legal. It is for off road use only. It still has all the additives that you really need for flat tappet cams. It is a full synthetic oil. You can order it through NAPA stores. It is about $6.50 a quart.

Re: 454 parts selection ??'s
 

Good point. Wonder if other synthetics are as good?

Also thanks again for pointing me to Bob at Marine Kinetics. Spoke to him Friday and will be working up a build sheet. Full roller is not in the budget, unfortunately.

Seems our builds will be quite similar according to Bob.

Rick

Now Bravo outdirve selections
 

Waking up this thread. Engine is finally in, started and initial break in last weekend! All went pretty smooth just lots of $$$ and parts.

Put a Marine Kinetics cam in thanks to this board. Idles nice too.

Went with full fresh water cooling and engine driven raw water pump. Engine is balanced and running roller rockers.

Now I'm looking for some good info on Bravo outdrives. Want to start collecting parts if / when the inevitable happens to the (don't laugh) Alpha drive. (It's lasted this long and does not get abused).

So.... Bravo I or II? III is probably out of the question (cost). Want to hunt and collect used parts. How about gear ratio?

Any help, input, links, sites with conversion info etc etc would be much appreciated.

Price ranges on used stuff? Anyone in New England selling?

Thanks for all the input so far.

Rick

There was an ALPHA SS posted Sunday for $1,500 by me. That will bolt right up with no changes.