Should mechanic fix it?
 

Took my boat to mechanic for a ticking noise in engine. Told him to diagnose. He calls and says he checked compression on both motors and numbers are all over the place. He recommends pulling the heads and doing valve job. So i say OK youre the mechanic do it. Well I pick up the boat I give him $2000 cash and he sends me on my way. A couple of days go by before I get the boat in the water to test it and when I do start it, IT IS STILL TICKING !! I am pissed ! I call him from the water and he says to run it a few hours to see if the ticking goes away. Well over the next 2 weekends I run 4 or 5 hours and the ticking fades a little bit, but when I run it wide open the ticking motor will only go 45-4600 and the other motor is at 5000. I checked compression today and got 145-155 on all cylinders. I call him up and he says we have to put lifters in it. I feel like I paid him $2000 and what I brought it in for did not get fixed. Should he put them in for nothing or should I have to pay him to do it?

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Pay For The Parts But Not The Labor.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

with out hearing it its hard to say exactly what it is but I think I can safely say he shouldn't of pulled the heads unless a stuck valve (would of shown on commp test) or mushroomed stem there's nothing there that would tick....

depending on what motor/exhaust you have it could be as simple as a exhaust flapper with the rubber worn off, or a collapsed lifter

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Its got 502's and stainless marine exhaust. I think it is open exhaust it is stupid loud, with a nasty cam in it , that is why I can hardly tell if it is missing on 1 cylinder or not. Its not keeping up with the other engine though, its about 4-500 rpms behind it. Is this how mechanics work? I feel like he should do something for me labor wise, I would of course pay for parts.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

personally I feel he made a bad call and cant imagin why he would of thought it was a head with good commpession all the way around I would of thought it was a bad cam lobe or lifter before pulling heads....

as for helping you out with labor Personally I dont know if Id want him playing with it any more....thats an expencive mistake that should of been a no brainer....

dont get me wrong we all make mistakes but withexperiance and traing we hope we make less as time goes by and we learn to check and double check especially before charging 2000.00 for work

just my 2 cents

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Joe ... elaborate ? the missing Flapper lets one motor get to 5K before the other? lost me ... (ez)

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Sounds like you paid $2000 for somebody to pull the heads,if he even pulled the heads. :rolleyes:

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Who is the mechanic and where do you live? My experience from this type of experience is to tell him what an a$$ he is and move on. Someone here can give you a recomendation to a reputable marina/mechanic.

You can try and get your money back since he didn't fix the problem,.. good luck. I have been "taken" more times then I care to admit so my advise is to find a new mechanic.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

no missing flapper rubber for the most part will not cause a loss in rpms but alot of times sounds like a lifter/rocker noise


with out hearing it it is very hard to give an acurate diagnosis......but can tell you from the get go cant imagine why he would of thought it was a head problem with the fact that it had good compression

lifter maybe
cam maybe
timing chain slap maybe
wrist pin maybe
conn rod maybe
ect
ect
ect

not a head issue

the last two wont really effect rpms till its to late

the fact that he replaced the heads he would of had to reajust the valves so that would rule out cam for the most part ......

maybe a colasping lifter ????????

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

something is not right, most mechanics do not need a lot of money down unless you are buying a motor or other high dollar item. If you run out on the bill they get to keep your boat in most cases, so this should not be a concern.

Ticking noise could be a whole lot of different things, but with RPM's issue it is likely valve train.

I would look to a different mechanic if this one is not running a reputable shop, if he is, give him another crack at it, no charge of course...

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

dean,

for the most part I agree with you, on repairs that require more then 500 in parts I usually ask for a deposit I do a lot of road work where we dont have the boat in our position and even if I did wouldnt insult my regular customers by asking, I know a lot of shops that wont touch a boat with out a credit card # on file.........

I have a customer now that had a 3800.00 bill 2500.00 in parts I got a 2000.00 dep now having a hard time collecting the balance......


at any given time I have between 5000 and 15,000 in receivables, Im a little guy thats alot for me to carry, but I dont want to insult my customers by asking for a cc # up front then charge it as I go



back to subject dean is right I believe it is in the valve train....

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Joe ... Here's where I would not agree with you ...because of guys like this guy here ..... I will not give money up front ....I do see your side ...but I'm sick and tired of incompetent work ....

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Ditto Joe.. Just like everyone else we need to get paid too. We are strict, but back it up with the service in return. Boats are fixed, no bs or sugar coating the problems, boat is returned as clean or cleaner than how it came in. The customer can acutually use the boat.. O yeah we try to do it all in a timeley fashion too..

I do agree that when the burglars out there take good money for shoddy work it hurts all of us.. Thats a good reason for the legit competent shops to protect themselves..

My suggestion is if not happy with work etc. etc. etc.. Find a different shop.. There are good shop owners & wrench's out there you have to look & trust a little.

BTW.. What is your oil psi? what weight oil are you running? Just curious.. Jamie.. :)

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Joe,

Your comments are interesting. I used to be a mechanic, a long, long time ago, I was not a real good one, more of a parts changer than a tech, but it helped me get through college. That background helped me when I started my CPA firm, auto and boat repair shops make up 50% of my client base, and we are REAL involved with them. We set their price, do all the taxes, investments, payroll, financial statements, manage banking relationships, help them collect receivables, all that stuff. Anyway I say that as a reference point...

We generally have clients file mechanic liens when they can not get paid, granted it is MUCH easier on a car cause the car is on the lot. You just do not let it leave until paid, however I think you could do this with a off site boat. Generally I would recommend not working away from the shop because of these problems, however if you work on large boats of course that would not be an option.

We find having the shop owner devote 30 to 45 minutes on Tuesday or Thursday morning between 9:00 and 10:00 to make calls to "?good?" customers with an outstanding balance to be the most effective way to collect receivables.

I question if they are good customers if you are having to call to get paid, if it is because you did not explain you expect payment at time service is rendered then it could be your fault, but if you did and are still having to make calls, we would disagree if they are "good" customers.

With a dead beat it will get painful, but it is already painful so turn up the heat VERY quickly, that will set a tone and collect more money than anything else.

The hardest thing for a small shop to realize is they need to run off customers who will not work with you and pay on time. I estimate 1/3 of the population are customers you should not be working for. Learning how to see them BEFORE you work for them is critical to YOU having a life as well as a business. One of the critical things to do is create an environment where it becomes harder for that customer to get through the door.

You may try (if you were a client I would tell you to do this and not give you an option on not doing it, but you are not so I will kindly offer for your consideration)...

On your tickets have printed in the lower part of the ticket - "PAYMENT REQUIRED WHEN SERVICES RENDERED - To give personal service we maintain a small shop, servicing only the BEST customer with GREAT service. Being small means we can not carry receivables, your help with payment when services are rendered is much appreciated and ensures you get our highest level of attention".

Generally that will cause some things to happen, first the customer who drags out payment will drift away from you, and your customers who simply do not know will now know and will make payment immediately. Over time it will help line out your client list. Your better customer will feel special, they will make referrals, but when they do the conversation will go something like:

"Joe is AWESOME, he only works for really good clients, but he is AMAZING, always takes care of everything, I never have to think twice about it, but he does not work for just anyone, if you want him to work for you you have to treat him good and pay on time, but man, it is well worth it"

Get enough referral's like that and your whole business changes....

Anyway, just trying to be helpful...... if you are already doing this kind of thing then maybe it will be helpful for someone else...


P.S. - once this standard is set you have to live up to it, but you can charge $5/more per hour than ANYONE in town, and price becomes an irrelevant part of the equasion. In this field in particular the shop who wins is the one who has the best customers...

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

I called the mechanic yesterday, he still maintains the motors needed the valve job and I was not going to argue about it, so I told him I was dissapointed with paying the money and still having the tick, so he says he will put in the lifters this week for Parts plus 4 hours labor @$50=$200 in labor. I said I will drop the boat off and hopefully this will be the end of it .......

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Dean,Think thats great advice and will start implimenting it...Thank you

95...did he say why the heads needed the valve job when they had good compression all the way around...did he do a leak down test ??????


personally 200 in labor isnt bad but hes redoing work R&R intake, R&R pushrods and adjust ..... he just did all this if he did it right he wouldnt be doing it again


just my 2 cents

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Glad to be of help, feel free to call if you ever want to bounce this stuff around...

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

GOODT, I think that you may have missed this.

With this I can understand pulling the heads. Lifter may not have shown until after but should have been noticed on the seatrial after the repair. Maybe it should have been caught before the boat was returned to the customer but I can understand how it was missed during the initial repair.

Good luck

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

said he took it to him for "ticking" lifter should of been first thought, I did miss the part about compression numbers all over the place

you are right,


I am sorry

I dont know why I thought he said compression was good all the way around



when Im wrong I do admit it, I must of read it wrong as far as that goes but he was complaining about the tick from the get go, so for the 100.00 that a set of lifters cost they sould of been done then

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

I agree, the lifters should have been replaced. But a bent/stuck valve can also sound like a collapsed lifter.

Still should have shown at the time of sea trial and been fixed before it was returned to customer.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Dean great info. I also run a small shop and have spent 30 years chasing money from deadbeat boat owners. I didn't see where he got any money down, just $2000.00 when the boat was picked up. I usually ask for a deposit only when repowering or doing a major repair but i usually like a credit card # on file. I won't use it if they send a check in reasonable time. And people always ask why do you need a deposit you have my boat. When you think about it, what can I really do with their boat. I have had leins and judgements and never collected. Small claims court has been a waste of my time.
I didn't see what engine we're talking about but it sure would suck if the ticking noise was something stupid like a Thunderbolt rotor disc bent and hitting the sensor.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Ask your attorney about a mechanics lien, it is not full proof, but the best thing going. Basically you are a creditor on the title and it can not be transfered until you sign off. Plus you can collect interest equal to your states post judgement rate...

Works in MOST states, but I can not vouch specifically for NJ...

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

hi bowtie,

2 k down for bb manifolds spacers and risers 2500 in parts along with other repairs total partsand labor came to 3800

when working several jobs and parts money out on all and then to have a hard time collecting and having to pay helpers ect it adds up....not to mention this guy had to have it for the "WEEKEND"

Im just a little guy trying to make a living and do more for my customers for free then most guys working for someone make in a year because my rep means everything to me


heck pulled a head this morning to get a cust on the water by next week end

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Joe,

PM Sent...

dean

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

nothing there yet will ck in a couple of min

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

got it reply sent

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Sorry I thought we were talking about the original post and thats where I didn't see a deposit. I agree with getting money up front, sometimes its just for cash flow, but necessary. I seem to have the same problem as you I do a lot things for free, but in the end I think it all works out. After all these years I think I finally have learned to screen customers, not boats.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

very true, but in the back of my mind I always worry about " next week "

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Mechanic put lifters for $200 plus parts, I picked up boat friday morning. He did not sea trial, only ran it on the hose. I took the boat out saturday, Lifters all sound good, but when I try to go past 2000-3000 rpm the motor is backfiring through the carb, so i slow it down to idle, no backfiring at idle. I take off again get up on plane it starts popping again. I stop again. Third time I try taking off everything sounds good, i brought it up to about 4000-4500 with no problems and it ran fine for the rest of that 45 minute ride. We hung out at Potters Bay in thousand islands for a couple hours. When I leave, the entire senario above happens again. After a couple of starts and stops the boat finally runs fine for the rest of that ride too. This also happened once before the lifters were put in. I am not sure if this means anything but both engines dont have thermostats in them, the temp gauge doesnt go past 100. Any ideas what might be wrong with this thing?

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Im asumming he did a compression test before doing lifters in which case pretty much has to be ............


popping through the intake indicates that a intake valve is either open or leaking during the inginition stroke of the motor


if the valves are adjusted too tight it will cause this, so would a bad valve spring


it really sounds like this guy has no clue what hes doing

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

I am beginning to think the same thing....He was recommended by a friend who had good luck with him. I am hesitant to start over with another mechanic but I may have to.

My fume detector was also going off during the whole ride. I was riding with the hatch up about a foot so it wouldnt blow up. :rolleyes: I dont know if the fume detector thing has anything to do with the backfiring or not, but it just started when I got it back?

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

wouldnt worry about that at this point but would get another shop to look at it and if its related to the work he did I would give him there bill and demand payment.... this stuff is first year apprentice stuff...... well maybe second year

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Did your ticking motor run behind the other one before you took it in the shop or only after?

Since you got it back the second time, is it still ticking?

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

This is not so in Florida. I can attest to that fact at a cost of $22,000! A judge signed off on my mechanic's lien, and I had all my ducks in a row. I got zip! :mad:

As a side note, the guy that ripped me off, came damn close to a 44 caliber lobotamy.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

coundt agree with you more...........................


if I made these kind of mistakes I guess Id have to start selling boats instead of working on them...........


wait a min..... let me think about this ........sit in a/c all day.......dont have to get dirty...........no money out for parts.......no billing............smiles instead of being the bearer of bad news................dont have to deal with ins companys..........


ok new broker in town...................... not............. I luv what I do as much of a pain in the A$$ as it is I do luv it

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

First of all, 2 grand sounds mighty steep for a valve job. He should have known that burned valves won't cause a ticking. First thing I suspect with ticking in the valve train is a collapsed lifter. I'm no mechanic by trade, but I can tell you which lifter is causing the tick by running it with the valve covers off, then pushing down on the rocker arms one at a time. Back in the day when oil wasn't as good, nor were oil filters, I'd run a can of CD2 through the oil, and see if it cleared it up. Sometimes, it's just a piece of junk blocking the oil to the lifter. If that didn't work, I've also been known to tightening the rocker down on a collapsed lifter, in essence making it a solid lifter. This was when I was driving pos cars, and had a lot more time than money. :)

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Last year, I had a terrible sound coming out of an engine. I had convinced myself I had spun a bearing, or something with a rod. I had just bought a rebuilt engine from a marine mech, so I took it back to him. Found out that one of the nuts on the rocker arm had backed completely out. He fixed it the same day. He told me he replaced all the nuts, but I've taken the engine apart since then (unrelated problem), and saw he had only changed the one nut. Those self locking nuts only self lock so many times before they wear out. I had to have a valve job done on the engine (it's out of the boat). The machine shop charged $150 (SBC). I just yesterday picked up the gaskets I need, and I'm hoping to put it back together in the next week or so. I don't know why, I don't even need the engine anymore. :) Debbie had to go to St Pete today, so I had her stop by and borrow my dad's torque wrench. I hated to buy one for just one use. :)

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

Speaking of up front money, I've been taking my boats to a shop that does it all, fiberglass, mechanical, painting etc. The first time I took a boat to him, I asked HIM if he wanted some up front money. He's kind of a quiet guy, and he said he was happy that I offered.

A couple weeks ago, I took a boat in, and he gave me about a five grand estimate on what I want done. He didn't ask me for it, but I gave him two grand up front money. He said he sure likes working with other small business owners. :)

I know what it's like having all the money going out, and none coming in for long periods of time.

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

my hat is off to cuda hes one of the few the proud the marines I mean.....oh hell with it but not to tut horns but good honest techs are hard to find if you find one keep him or keep trying because we are out there I take pride in my work ....by far im not rich ....I worry every week where the money to pay my bills is comming from but I can raise my head and say my customers are happy and if you have a problem on sun day you can call me ........ and you tell me thanks... I had a great week end and you got it right for me Im happy its not always about the money....yes it helps............I charge 75.00 an hour but also do about 20 hrs a week for free ............ compare that

Re: Should mechanic fix it?
 

I told that guy after he did the first job for me, and came in right about what I figured it would cost, and it was done right, that treating me right, was better than taking a full page ad out in the Orlando Sentinal. :)

He told me a guy that I met on the river came there because I reccomended him. I don't even know who it is. I DO know that he wasn't driving the boat he is having worked on, because it's almost exactly like Debbie's boat that I have there, having almost the exact same work that I'm having done, but his needs quite a bit more attention.