OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Guys, I need some help, I am on my fourth set of motors this year, a $8K project has alread cost $27K and I just ordered two more motors so now it over $40K. What ever I am doing is not working and I need help to get it lined up.

History:

January 2006 started to do top end of motors, started with 60 hour 330 hp, Gen 5, 454's. Bottom ends had the big rods, steel crank, and forged pistons.

Took the boat to a reputable shop, after 3 or 4 times they got the motors right, we put dart heads, a comp cam retro hydraulic roller kit (236 dur / 540 lift) , lightening headers, air gap intakes, and new carbs. The motors made 440 hp on a independent shop's dyno and ran great. Each dyno was run with same components as on motor when in boat except headers (different kind, but still headers).

Put them in the boat in April and took her out, she was fine in the marina area, but under a load she got super hot, super fast. One motor spun a main bearing.

Felt like the other motor also needed to be looked at after being hot and lack of confidence, so pulled both engines. Took took them to a machine shop for total rebuild, new cranks, new rods, pistons, springs, everything balanced. Replaced oil lines and coolers, put them in the boat, valves were crushing pistons (these are 308 dart heads and flat tops, should be lots of valve clearance). (No Dyno this time).

Pulled the motors, new oil lines and coolers, rebuild motors, new pistons, re balance, all that. Put them on the dyno, 420 hp, ran them HARD, I told the guy with the dyno "if they are gonna break, break them here, do not let them get back in the boat without your complete confidence".... motors ran well on dyno...

Put them in the boat, after 4 hours run time one blows, am not sure what right now but #5 is full of oil. Last time they blew a different marine repair shop owner was with me on a test and turn mission, making very minor carb adjustments. We rant the motors pretty good (5200 rpm's) for 10 minutes or so, got more speed than we ever have, the idled around a bay talking shop, then headed back to marina at about 3200 rpm when it blew. Oil pressure and water temp never gave an indication of failure, also we never heard any unusual noises, one just quit. they are out of boat now, but not tore down. Still waiting evaluation....

Now my question, can lightening headers cause problems with this cam shaft (236/540)? Should I be looking at them as a source of problems? What am I missing, I am doing EVERYTHING I know to get this right, spending horrible amounts of money, following advice to the maximum extent possible, trying like hell to be the ideal customer, not asking for favors, or none of that mess. Asking EVERYON to baby sit the stuff and charge extra if needed.

I just ordered two new crate motors, going to try this again, but I can not keep doing this...

Your comments are appreciated...

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Dean,
Ive never heard of any problems with lightning headers ( doesnt mean there arent any just means I havnt seen or heard of any) certainly wont cause a valve to hit a piston

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Lightning recommends the cam to be no more than 240 duration @.050 based on a 454 C.I. engine with a standard Mercury header and 8" long collector. You can check it on their site along with more information about reversion at http://www.boatheaders.com/reversion.htm

We are a little more conservative and recommend no more than 230 degrees duration @ .050. In our experience anything over that is likely to have reversion problems.

The hard part is there is no set number that will give you the exact answer in your application, the only real way to find out is to try it. That's why we always recommend the more conservative number of 230.

So the problem is not necessarily Lightning Headers or any other brand for that matter, when it comes to reversion the cam along with a few other things is the real culprit.

It might also be worth your time to read the Keith Eickert article on the subject at http://www.keitheickert.com/tech_sup..._Reversion.pdf

Hope this helps.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

If there is water in the oil that's one thing, if not then you may have burned/detonated a piston. It's possible that your total jetting was ok for 5200rpm but was lean just running on the primaries at 3200rpm. The plugs should tell the story.

Hard to really get an idea until you get in the motor.

might be something as simple as a stuck needle and seat. Could be a stuck valve.

If you go to the dyno again, I'd really recommend having them hold the pull at 5200rpm for at least a minute collecting data every 10 seconds, watch the EGT's to make sure they are stable, likewise at the max rpm you can pull with just the primaries open.

I did this at my last dyno session and ended up a couple of jet sizes fatter than our best hp pull. Best pull was 600 final pull with the bigger jets was 584 i think.

Good luck

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

My 540 never reverted with lightning headers with a 228/234(might have been 236) cam and merlin heads,I switched to cnc ported AFR's and a cam thats around 236/240 (barely bigger) and it reverted so bad it would stall with lightnings. It doesn't sound like thats your problem though,Smitty

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Are you running electric fuel pumps?I went threw what you are going threw right now a few years ago!In three months i installed 6 motors,one would brake so i would fix it,then the other one would brake!Ran great in the marina and when running on the hose but once i put a load on them, either one would let go!Ended up being electric fuel pumps and lack of voltage at higher rpms which created a lack of fuel pressure when they realy needed more!It only takes a few seconds and kabum!CHECK ALL FUEL SUPPLY AND FUEL PRESSURES!SOUND LIKE A LEAN CONDITION UNDER A LOAD!GOOD LUCK

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

I also would start there if there is no water in the oil. Jetting, pressure, some auto drag race carbs go to lean at top end where a marine carb does the opposite, etc. Do you have oil temp gauges or EGT gauges? Usually lean will show up there before water temp.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

carbs are new ederbrock 750's, they were stepped up to run a little richer on the power circuit, other than that stock, the motor seems to like them as they came from the box on the idle and cruise circuit. The adjustment to run richer was a small one.

No, no electric fuel pumps, they are mechanical......

Talked with mechanic last night, he said when he pulled headers #5 was full of oil, and he found a piece of metal about the size of a pin head, maybe a broke ring, which means engines have to be bored and all, I pray this is not the case, these are still standard bore blocks.

I THINK fuel is okay, it was okay on Dyno, do not have oil temp gages, was in a conversation with Fred to order them. We had not really got the two motors lined out yet so we were working on those items.

I am not sure how to get EGT gages, I assume they would require an O2 sensor in the exhaust and of course these headers do not have a place for one.

I am calling fred today and getting to oil temp gages, will have to mount in the engine compartment, but at least I will have indication.

Any other thoughts?

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Need more info then given on the cam.

Have we checked quality of fuel in tank?
Have we checked fuel tank pick-ups ?
Antisiphon valves ?
Fuel line size, routing, fittings, etc,etc ?
Was thA/F ratio checked on dyno ? With Wideband 02's or just the typical dyno fuel meter vs air flow meter readings ?
Are we using same fuel system on dyno as in boat ? Same with ignition ?

Do we have fuel psi guages on board we can check while running ?

Do we check plugs after a quick 1st run ?

================================
Is compression being set to high ?

IS the engine builder also a boat rigger of some sort ? Atleast understand it ?

Can we look at exact breakage from each motors and narrow down what has happened ?

===============================

If it's an issue with boat rigging itself, new motors or different people's motors won't make a difference.

If it is just a tuning issue or engine assembly / parts selection issue, then some other builder may make you happy.

==============================

There is more to engine building and rigging that meets the eye.

A problem must be pinpointed and corrected.

Root cause and repair.

==============================

Good luck with you endeavors, must be a tough one to swallow. Really hard to help with an issue like this unless you have specific questions that you need help answering.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

I would ditch the edlebrock carbs and go for Barry Grant Sea Demons, haven't heard anything bad about them and RUMRUNNER here on OSO is head of technical services for them. PM him for more info.

Any cast header can be drilled for egts, tubular ones are more tricky. However this may not be necessary if you start with a quality marine carb.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Thanks SB, I think you hit it n the head, I need to find the problem, more money thrown at the wrong solution will not solve the problem.

The fuel this time was just recently purchased from marina, 89 octane stuff, 8.75:1 motors (stock flat top pistons).

The engine builder has some 30 years experience, the mechanics owns a boat sales and r/r shop, both shop owners did the work themselves (did not farm it out to employee).

Ignition is the same as came in the boat, fuel lines are all stock merc stuff. Your comments about fuel is make me look close at spark plugs for indications of fuel problems.

No fuel gages, will call Fred and have him send some.......

new mechanic is a different shop owner, I hate to switch people in the middle, but it only seems reasonable, motors are new crate motors, so I swapped shops there too.

Background, everyone who touches this boat I have close, PERSONAL relationships with, my only request, which I make very clear, is to baby sit my stuff, and charge for extra time if needed, but do not farm it out to a employee. I do not think incompetence or negligence has played a part, but I also know no one walks on water.

again, the comments are apprecieated...

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Finding a good, reputable engine shop that is familiar with and knows what it takes to build a hi-perf marine engine that stays together isn't always an easy thing. Hopefully you'll find your way before it costs you even more of your hard earned $$$. Just remember, when dealing with these so called performance engine shops you don't want to become one of their test bed guinea pigs! Anyway, I hope all goes well for you from here.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

forgive my ignorance but is there some reason you just don't call mercruiser and buy what you want from people that actually really do this with fabulous success ?

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Yes, and no...

Yes, that was the purchase yesterday....

No, we started with good motors and a solid foundation, in a boat that was running well (not fast, just well). We started with a fee changes to good motors. When they blew the top end (the new stuff) was still new, and it was cheaper to rework short blocks than buy new, so we did that, then next time around the machine shop picked up the rebuild tab, now is the fourth time, and all we have done is sit motors on the floor.

So it is like mission creep, a "we went this far, the next step is less expensive than new motors"... those were rational decisions based upon the ingredients to that point.

Now I am irrational, so I bought 2 new, GM sealed, with warranty, 425 ho motors.....

My concern is making sure I do not destroy these motors with the same problem that has yet to be discovered. I can not afford to test each and every component to see if it blows the motors until we find the root problem.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

yes... i see that now... the foundation WAS good so that was the right choice. my boat had junk in it when i got it and i chose to buy 2 factory 502 mag mpi rather than rebuild the two that i had... completely dif situation...

am curious ( off topic) about one thing tho... early on i wrote a post about dyno numbers and correction factors and when the motor builder in question mentioned here posted on this site a dyno sheet with some unbelieveable results and i asked for the sheet with the uncorrected numbers , i was savaged as being negative and generally too cynical to be allowed to breath the same air as real people... now , suddenly dyno cynicism in general and this motor builder specifically is fair game... i am curious what suddenly changed everyone's mind.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

Not sure I saw that post, but I would not trust a dyno that was operated by the builder 90%+ of the time. I am big on that "independence" thing, I sent these to a guy with a dyno who was not an engine builder. That does not mean I got perfect results with the dyno (but I have faith in them), but I know the guy who did the dyno work understood his roll as "verifier".

We all know way to many people use inflated Dyno results to sell at inflated prices. The old time, been around forever, know their stuff guys know that crap never works, but the "live hand to mouth, want to make a giant splash, gotta prove I a mbetter than other" guys, well, that is a game some want to believe in....

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

His 540cid/750hp build with sheets on this and another forum. Some respected members 'in the know' busted it thru some major 'CSI work' and the thread got shut down and those members got got warnings.

Generally - the builders here that help on the threads vs brag about 'family recipe' and '10yrs ahead of everyone else in engine technology' etc,etc are the ones to put on your list of possible builders to do a build.

stevesxm - you've been a part of those threads. LOL. SO, don't think all dyno sheets are lies, you just have to be able to decipher them. Only one person posting questionable data that I've seen, which is causing quite a ruccus. (sp?)

Anyway - being relatively new here there may be others, but throough all my 'searches' only one name has stood out.

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

there are laws of mathematics, two engines with like components built correctly will produce the same HP, there are things that can be done with flowing heads and intakes and all, but they are mathematical in nature, not voodoo, so they are repeatable... and the market is full of smart, and dumb, people. No one person has "the secret voodoo formula", and if they did, the second motor they sold would be to a compeditor who would tear down the motor and figure out the secret....

I strongly believe if you take 10 people, put them in different rooms, give them all the same ingredients, and a problem to solve, 75% of them will come up with the same or very similar solutions. Shops are no different than those rooms, and the inputs are the vendors in the market. There will be slight differences, but among the top 10% (some of whom post here) there will be little if any difference. If this were not the case Merc could not sell 500EFI's, they sell 500EFI's because they know consistent application of certain rules and ingredients produce consistent results. The difference in builders is attention to detail, follow through, and customer service.

Now back to mine, it is not consistent, so maybe there is multiple problems??????????

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

i have your solution right here.... i just rebuilt the two 454 / carb 9 to 1s that were blown up in my boat when i got it... fresh off the dyno at 975 hp each on unleaded regular.... 10 k each and ill pay the shippig...

honest...

lifetime warrantee too

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

send them over and we will run them.......... :D

Re: OSO GURU's - Please Help - Questions on Lightening Headers
 

IMO you did the right thing by buying to new crate motors. I was in the same situation but with just a single motor. Spent all last summer in the engine compartment and spent well over 8k on a repairs that was only supposed to be around 1k.