Augh! Setting up my amps
 

I just finished installing 2 amps and am in the process of tuning them, but have absolutley no idea what some of the adjustments are and where they should be set. Audio terms are foreign to me. I'm a 'this' or 'that' thingy person. :) I'm looking for at least a starting point (or a must be set at ) and which way to adjust (up or down) if need be. Specifically the filters 'slope' and the 'frequency' adjustments. Also the 1x/10x frequency switch and the infra sonic adj. on the mono amp.
The basics I understand: HP for the 4 channels, input voltage and sensativity (gain)
Not looking for that thumping bass, but just a good sound as far as the free airs will deliver.

My system;
2) 10" free air subs mounted at drivers and pass. feet sides powered by a mono amp.
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_a...php?amp_id=251

2) 6x9 Babbs in the rear bench seat as the 'rear' amps channel, and 2) 5 1/4" Babbs mounted at the sides rear seat up about shoulder height as the amps 'front' channel.
4 channel amp http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_a...php?amp_id=254

note:
The JL manual says my subs/mono amp will work best at 24dB slope, but when i did that, the subs popped like no tommorrow. Sounded like the cone was going to come out of the frame. With volume and gained turned way down too the 2nd time I tried it. If I leave it at 12dB, it's fine, but what happened?

1 final question for the pros. Do you prefer to set the gains by ear or a tone cd and DMM as suggested by JL? I've read about using a cheap amplified speaker to get the HU's max volume setting before distortion, then going to each amp and doing the same adjustment leaving the HU at the previously tested max volume instead of the standard 3/4 volume . Seems like a more accurate way w/o going to the osciloscope route.

My other option is to have the stereo guys come to my house to adjust which we have discussed, but they are car guys and not boat familiar. So thinking it might be a waste of my money.

As always, any suggestions are greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

well..you have adjustments, that are beyond me (some of them) but the basics how I have always done it, start with the front speakers, pull the rca's for the rears and the sub so only the fronts play, adjust the upper cut dwon untill you loose the shrillness and the low pass up untill the bass cleans up, then work the gain up untill you get distortion at high volume and back it down a little, same with the rears, then the sub, the freq. could be 1 of 2 things depending on the amp. 1 is the upper level freq cut off or it could be freq booster (to help tune enclosures)and have a sep control for the crossover point. slope is how it rolls down from the crossover point, play with things untill the bass is tight and has good punch but is not muddy, work the gain up little by little untill it get distorted back it down a tad and remeber the setting, now turn the gain down on the sub, play your standard music and work the gain on the sub up untill its at the desired level without going past your mark. ideally you want the tone controls on the deck all set to neutral, you want your bass to come out of the amp and sub, not by turning the bass up on the deck. unless your trying to do some kind of competiton set everything up by ear, afterall its your ears your trying to please. unless your cranking it to 11 when your setting it up, this is a safe way, and by playing with everything, you will know what to change to alter the sound. remeber too on most decks anything over 3/4 volume is NOT louder..it just starts adding distortion making it seem louder.. power doesnt kill speakers distortion does.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Tune by ear - thats what is going to listen to it.

Let me try to help some.
Initial settings (pwr off):
L to R on sub amp
Preamp Output: n/a
Amp LP filter: 24db slope - set freq dial to 55 - 60
Bass Control: infrasonic switch on (to right side) LF boost 0 (for now)
Input: Input voltage to low, signal sensing- off, set input sens to 12 O'clock

Ok, now you have the bass amp "basically" set up.

Now lets set up the mids/tweets amp:
Front AND rear filter controls: X1 and 12db slope for both, Filter mode: HP, Filter Freq: approx 80
Front and rear input: Input voltage-low,set levels to 12 O'clock. 2 or 4ch depending on how you hooked it up.

Now turn it on to a CD of familiar music. pull the rca's off the sub amp for now - we only want to listen to the HP amp.
If using in 4 ch - Adjust HP amp F&R levels so the 4 speakers are at same volume level and the amp is not distorting. Use your best judgment. If in 2 ch mode, adjust for no distortion at almost max volume.
Now turn off and hook up sub amp. Listening to music w/ good bass, at a decently loud volume, adjust sub amp level to where it sounds right. Once it sounds right, slowly adjust sub amp LP filter from around 50 to 80 and see where the woofers sound best. (probably around 60) Once the low freq is set, make note of it. If it is 60, set both HP filters on HP amp to between 80 and 100. If LP amp is 60, the HP amp will likely sound best at about 85. These are your basic settings. On the sub amp, the LF boost is like a bass control and should be dealt with VERY carefully - esp w/ free air subs. Want a little more punch to the bass? - play with that control a little at a time on various music. Going over 10 will likely result in a blown woofer.
Also, take your time - a little adjustment here and there make a big difference on how the speakers interact. If new speakers, set adjustments till they sound ok - don't try to dial it RIGHT in. Get sounding OK, then play the system as much as possible for a week or so, this lets the speakers break in. After which, they will sound better. Then adjust to suit your taste.

LP to HP you generally want a 20 to 25Hz spread to sound balanced.
If you get it out of wack - start over using same procedure.

Good luck -

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Well I do not know how you wired the subs however I can not see why setting your slop to 24 Degrees would cause it to thump all of the sudden.

Let me try and tell you what those things do at any rate.

The SLOPE is used in conjunction with the cross over point. The steeper the slope (higher the number) the less it allows music from above the cross over point to go below the cross over point. Think if it like a dam. Your high freequencies are above the damn and the low frequencies are below it. The steeper the slope the less water that is allowed to go through.

The Cross over point works with the 1X and 10X switch. The cross over has a variable frequency. In the case of your amp it showes that you can set the frequencies from 50K-500K. If you set the switch from X1 to X10 then your settings will be from 500K-5000KHZ.

I have to make an assumption with your system because you did not tell us. I am going to assume that your head unit has RCA outputs for the Fronts, Rears, and Subs. Make sure that all your settings on the head unit are at 0. I am talking about bass, treble, gains anything like that.

For a starting point I would set the Sub amp up as fallows:
1) Pre Amp Output Section has no effect unless it goes to the other amp

2) Amp LP Filter: I like the sub filter to be set at 24 DB and the filter frequency to be set at about 85 to start with.

3) Infrasonic Filter turn off to start with.

4) Amplifier Input Section: You will probably want that set to low but again I do not know what voltage your head unit puts out tell we know what kind of head unit you have. Signal sensing can probably be off if you ran a wire for the remote.

I would set your front amp up as:

1) Rear Filter Controls (Runs the Babbs?): Frequency range to X1, Filter Slope to 12db, Cross over point to 75, Filter mode to HP

2) Rear Input Section: Input Voltage again probably low.

3) Front Filter Controls: Frequency range to X1, Filter Slope to 12db, Cross over point to 75, Filter mode to HP Input mode switch is set to 2ch if you only have 1 pair of RCA's going into the amp and 4ch if you have 2 pair of RCA's going into the amp

Now for the hardest part that takes years to figure out and I can guarantee the car guys do not understand. When you feel that you are missing something then you do not want to ADD what you are missing for sound you want to bring down what there is to much of. In other words if you feel that the subs are not strong enough, don't try and force them up, take the highs down for best sound. It is a lot harder then it sounds. I ussually start with my sub gains then bring up the highs to match. I have found that to be the easiest.

Hope that helps ya out some.

Jon

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Hey are your 10" Subbs babbs like the rest of the speakers? If they are those are actually FULL RANGE and they will sound like doggie doo doo if you set them for bass only.

Jon

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Well Bill and I are close to the same recommendations.... How do ya like that. Some slight variations on the way things are but that is mostly probably due to the fact that we really do not know how the system is wired. My only disagreement with him is the cross over settings. In cars we leave a gap in the cross over point because cars have a natural peak that ussually happens in the 60-120K range. Boats are so open that ussually does not happen. I have found that in fact due to the open nature of a boat those frequencies get lost. With your subs on the floor the bigest problem that I see is getting the bass up to your ear. That audio is going to be coupled hard to the floor....

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Subs are JL 10" free air subs 4 ohms. Brand new. Wired in parallel. both +'s to + of amp, same with -. So a 2 ohm load.
The 4 Babbs are 3 yrs old.
The 4 channel amp is wired as a 4 channel.

HU has 2 volt RCA outputs for FL, FR, RR, LR and a single sub RCA, So i have set the amps inputs on low. The sub RCA has a 'Y' cord connecting both the channels on the mono amp together per JL's instruction manual. 4 channel amp is not feed thru the mono amps preouts, just thru the HU. I think this is a better route because I'm using all 4 channels.

I'll try these settings and report back. Thanks!

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

That's the exact reason I'm asking here vs the audio shop I bought from or from an audio forum. Both have very little knowledge of boat setups.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Like Bill said don't work on it for more then about 20-30 min then take a good long break. If you can listed to the same music on what ever the best stereo you have is so that you can re-actimate your ears to what the music is supposed to sound like. Your ears will start to trick the holly hell out of you after a very short time of listening to things all messed up. Check your wireing one last time as well. Make sure you are + to + and - to -. I just had my brother wire up my bathroom at my house and he put them out of phase and I was taking a shower about 10 min ago and was like WTF is wrong with the sound. Went up into the attick and wamo..... serves me right for having a computer programmer wire my speakers!!!! :D

You may want to go from low to high on your inputs but start with the low first.......

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Narrowing the bandwidth increases gain with some amplifier designs.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

I forgot to clarify HU settings.

Volume at 3/4 full and left there for the amp tuning?

Treble, bass, and SUB all centered/neutral/default or fully down? As when you 1st power up a stereo for the 1st time, the bass and such are in the middle of the scales.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Did you check to make sure that the Bass output level is set flat and that Loudness is turned off?

Volume at 3/4 is probably ok. What head unit is it? Sony, Clarion......

Jon

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

I chose a lower sub X-over due to the fact they are free air, AND I have just set up a boat w/ same woofers and almost same amp (500/1 vs the 250/1). The lower x-over performed better in that situation. I have never heard of the wide gap in boats. Interesting!
I 'have" tried closing the gap, but thought is sounded poor. That just goes to show, different enviroments/ different settings. Either method will result in decent sound, but then you must take it to the next level by tuning it to your enviroment/ear.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Bingo!!

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Sony MEX-R5
http://techronics.com/index.cfm?fuse...FQsEVAodVkcKng


Thanks Guys.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

I agree with ya. We are just tossing out starting points then tweek from there. When I get real confused I break out my RTA (real time analyser for you Fountain :D). You have to be carefull with those however becuase what can look great on a RTA will ussually sound like crap. Human ears do not replicate a RTA!! I did not want a gap between the subs and highs. It is what I have found as a good start possition in boats. Then work from there. Just what I find easier. As you know there is not a set way that HAS to be done. When I do the larger systems with parametrics and such then I have a hired gun. The guy is amazing what he does. Can take him 5 visits to get it 100% but man what a difference he makes!!

Jon

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

update.

Not sure what is going on, but the mono amp is hardly putting out any volume. At least last night I could get it to thump really good. I have to turn the HU up full and the gain near full. Set to the low input setting too. Now it makes no difference if it is 12 or 24db, nothing much there on either.

I thought the battery might be weak, but it runs the 4 channel just fine, so I unhooked the power signal to it to keep all the juice to the mono amp only. No change. Battery charger made no difference. It seems like I have to have the HU sub adj way up for anything to happen. THinking the Sub circut was bad, I used the front line rcas to feed the mono amp, no change. The subs don't have a thump thump to them, but more of a low mumbleing to them. doesn't sound right. Tried different RCA cables, no change. Checked the speaker wiring, ok. Then switch to my other battery, no change. Can the amp be bad now?
Also, if I turn the sub setting all the way down at the HU, it turns off any sound to the subs and also says ATT on the screen. Kinda like a disable feature. So I have to at least have it bumped up 1 notch. The amp power light is always on. The manual states if the battery voltage drops below 10 v, the amp will shut off and the light go out.
Is there a way to check the amp w/o unhooking everything and taking it in?

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Charge battery overnight

Double check the input section and make sure the input sel switch is on low and the level is at least 12 O'clock.

Double check output of sub level on Sony - put it mid way and make sure RCA cables are plugged into the sub out - which on Sony's is on a pigtail of wires.

It 'could' be the amp, but those things are pretty tough



Jon,
Who makes that RTA?
One of my staff decided they liked mine better than I did and we need a new one. I haven't seen one (but haven't look "real" hard either) but would like to get one again.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

I agree don't set your sub outs to 0 on the head unit, set them half way. So if the scale is 0-10 put it at 5, 0-20 put it at 10.

Put a ohm meter on the speakers and make sure that they are reading 2ohms. It really sounds to me like you have a short. You have to take the speaker leads away from the amp to test this. If they read 2 ohms then put the amp to full range and see if you get any output from the amp.

Jon

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Bill the RTA that I use is http://industrialaudiocontrol.com/pr...50&l1=5650&l2=

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

THATS what I had. Thought they were out of business. . .
Thanks

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

THATS what I had. Thought they were out of business. . .
Thanks

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Battery was bad. I think it was shorted because when I put my charger on it, the gauge would bounce between charging and charged every 3 sec. New 5/06, so free replacement. 1000CCA dual purpose. Other battery must have been low enough to not work either.
Anyways, amp came back to life. Having trouble hearing the difference between the gain and the freq adj. Both seem to do same thing to my ears after a short time, so I set them at 60 LP, and 85 HP for now and the sub turned down at the HU to rid the rumbling sound. Seems like some songs need some bass, then if I leave it there, the next song will blow the boat off the trailer. Trying to find that spot where I won't have to touch anything to play every song. I think trying to adjust them in the garage isn't helping as the sound is enclosed??? At least now I will be able too tweak on it a little at a time.
The 4 channel is good. Nice and clear. The sub, jury is still out.

Thanks

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

I would suggest the JL RBC-1. It is the remote bass control. It plugs the the RJ11 port on the amp and extends to wherever you need it with phone cable. I think setting my jl e4300 was easy. I picked a reasonable hp crossover at 85. But the sub amp 500/1 I tinker from song to song. I lp crossed my jls at 85ish. You are correct each song is different. Therefore, mount the RBC (ebay $30) close to you and adjust as needed at high volumes so not to blow the freeairs. At low volumes there is not the need to adjust that much.

Re: Augh! Setting up my amps
 

Also the subsonic filter I feel is crucial in a free air application. I have it set a notch above 20. This way the speaker doesn't have to handle frequencies we can't hear.

The bass remote is for the 500 and 1000. Not for the 250. Really have no desire to change the bass from song to song. Too much work. Wanna plug the Ipod or CD in and let'r play.

I'm thinking about getting the test disc from Crutchfield to help with the setup. Have read several reviews about it with positive results and ease of setup. I assume my difficulty in the settings are my untrained ears, not knowing exactly what to listen for. I just hear volume changes, not sound changes. By using the disc and a DMM as suggested by JL, at least the max input settings will be set by a meter. Still researching, but for now, I went with the recommended settings between Bill and Jon. I have been reading about using a small amplified speaker and some resistors to drop teh amps output, to be used with the test disc for another method of setup.
What subs are you running?

I'm running the marine JL's in freeair.

As for as too much work the remote is just one knob. You can always add it later.