Kinsler Fuel Injection
 

Anyone use Kinsler for a conversion or upgrade?

Just wondering what your experience was good or bad. Did you deal with them directly or through a dealer or builder?

Also which system did you use?

Do they make a marine system?

Are you talking mechinical or electronic?

Their mechanical (constant flow) systems are pretty much only suited for racing. Their electronic systems are just other manufacturers systems. In that case you're just paying for their expertise in setting it up, and like the previous poster said, they're not marine specific.

They've been around forever. Their rep has always been that they do quality work, but you pay for it. Often quite a bit more than you'd pay elsewhere for quality work.

I have found a decent source of fuel injection information is Tim at Marren Fuel Injection.

Thanks;

Well, they are calling the system we are talking about "marine" It is EFI with 8 throttles. Pick up for timing is in a Hall distributor set up.

I would guess Marine means sealed ignition and timing boxes and flame arrestors..

And yes they are expensive but it is supposed to be ready to go when you get it (Figuratively, I am sure there is still set up/programing issues)

This is the unit. I believe Kinsler is the manufacturer of the manifold and throttles. About $10K per engine.

Their port throttled manifolds are truely a work of art. You'll want to sit one on your coffee table for a while before you install it on the motor.

However, unless you're racing, port throttling isn't necessary or desirable. You will not gain any power from that feature and it will necessitate occasional cylinder-to-cylinder throttle adjustment (a pain in the butt). The only thing you will gain is throttle response (IF it is tuned perfectly). If it is not tuned perfectly you will gain nothing. Port throttling is not very forgiving.

Also, this manifold is tuned for pretty high RPM. I would guess well over 6000rpm depending on engine size. You will lose considerable torque over an ASM manifold. And what will you do about a flame arrestor? These bell mouths are meant to run in undisturbed open air. You'll have to put a pretty big box on top of it.

Not trying to rain on your parade. Kinsler makes good stuff, but has always been for race vehicles only. You didn't mention what your application is, but unless you're building a strictly racing application, there are better options.

Great stuff. I have more questions for later.

YUP!

Just add another engine- it'll be cheaper.

Mechanical injection will load up when idled a long time.


You could buy a PSI with nice carbs for that price.

a friend has it on his skater, works awesome.

No racing, just performance driving, like all you guys:D

I have always assumed these were contiuously tuned by the computer reading the sensors and adjusting fuel flow. I also assumed that they were great around a dock, you know no stalling or loading up(EFI).

I have 600 inch motors, max HP at 6300 rpm. Kinsler said they design the sizing and injectors to fit the application. I can easliy make flame arrestors out of the air cleaners shown above. The price includes all the computer and sensors )no Laptop though.

All Feedback appreciated. Tssteph, is that a Kinsler set up? Does he run a flame arrestor?

It's not the injectors that are different on this setup, it's the throttles. Having individual throttles on each cylinder will give better throttle response when that is a big issue (motorcycle racing - yes, Going fast in a straight line - not so much), but you have to match them up perfectly. It doens't matter how well the injectors are matched up, if the airflow is different into each cylinder.

When the throttle is in front of the plenum like on any Merc FI motor, there isn't any real potential for big airflow differences (if the manifold is designed right). Port throttles WILL NOT make any more power than a cheaper and easier to setup plenum throttled setup.

Also, a port throttled setup has to be controlled based on throttle and rpm (there inherently is no MAP signal). Plenum throttled engines are controled with a manifold pressure vs. RPM mapping. MUCH more flexible and easier to tune. You can add a MAP sensor to a Throttle vs. RPM setup to correct for barometric conditions, but it's always a guestimate, and never works as good as you'd like it to.

I'd also guess that those filters are probably a compromise, and aren't the best for airflow into the bells (but I could be wrong on this)

Again, Yes it looks REALLY cool, but you're not going to go any faster, it'll cost more, and will be more trouble to tune and keep tuned in a variety of conditions.

So first you really need to decide your goals. If looking cool is what your after, you have to ask yourself how cool it's going to look after you put those filters on top of the stacks.

Then you need to decide what other complents you're going to use. Figure out about how much power you're going to make and what RPM you want to make it at. Once you figure that out, you can pick an intake manifold/throttle choice.

Then as a separate issue, you decide what computer system you want to use. That's based on a number of factors, but usually based on who's going to do the tuning for you (they'll have the best results with a system they are familiar with).

Hope that helps

Thanks bcarpman.

OK I feel bay for wanting my eye candy:D:D

You are right, what I run now (Dominators) are not broken but they too need adjustments and maintainance.

For the sake of discussion, lets follow it out a little more.
Kinsler told me that after I give them all the data on my engines, down to the specific flow #s, cam, bore/stroke, etc, etc. They will optimize the throttle size as well as the injectors. My engines are blueprinted to the point where the two only varied by 2HP at 6350rpm so It seems logical to me that they should be able to nail down the combo. (tell me why my reasoning is faulty if I am off as you obviously know more than me on this). They also said we could locate MAP sensors into the airbox which I assume includes the aircleaner assemblies. Heck I have a BMW which does it nearly this way.

If everything is with in say 2% port to port and the oil/water temp sensors, MAP sensors and O2 sensors are sending data at millionths of a second, won't the computer constantly adjust ratios and ignition timing keeping everything optimal?

Again, set me straight. I am needing a bit more understanding as my impressions are obviously different than what you are telling me.

If you were putting this set-up on a car, yes. On a boat i've never seen a place to mount an o2 sensor. Without that, you can't fine tune the a\f ratio with the computer very well.

with the setup in the pictures there is not a O2 sensor, the setup is from the early to mid 90's and is a Kinsler setup and still works awesome. Starts up idles cold, no stalling. It does us what looks like a map sensor and also what looks like a air temp sensor on the manifold. My guess is there are fule maps based on temps and MAP pressure that are adjusted as needed. This setup was originally setup and installed/configured by Eikert. Looks great and runs great.

Are you running a single dominator or twins on a tunnel ram intake. I would replace the carbs with throttle bodys and put injectors in the runners and a Mefi 4B ecu and wiring harness.

I have both single dominator and tunnel ram manifolds. Currently running a single 1250. I have thought of this method too (throttle bodies on manifolds).

My stellings were made with a O2 sensor bung in the collector.

What about individual port tuning as mentioned above? Flame arrestors?

Not sure, no flame arrestors right now.

Kinsler is correct to a point. The stuff he is talking about is actually the easy part for anyone who knows what they are doing (10 minutes). Tuning it all once it's on the engine is the tough part, regardless of the system used (many hours on a dyno to do it right).

Adjusting the airflow port-to-port is also something that can only be done on the engine with proper equipment. I'm sure this system does have MAP, and Air temp sensors, except unlike a plenum throttled application, there is NO TRUE MAP SIGNAL. That is why port throttling works the way it does. In this setup the MAP sensor becomes a Baro sensor and isn't really used as the tuning parameter, throttle angle is, so it becomes a pridictive thing, not an actual calculation. Works great on racing engines, but less so on engines that see a variety of conditions.

O2 sensors can be put into boats for quick tunning, but not for use on a continuous basis. Even if they could be, O2 sensors are only used to correct slight errors in calibration, NOT as the calibration themselves. If you try to do that, you'll end up with an engine that runs, but runs very badly.

Again, it can be done, but if we were both setting up identical engines and I did it my way and you used Kinslers Port Throttles, we'd both end up with the same performance, but you'd pay a lot more money, and have a lot more hassels. And although you might think your engines ran great, if you compared them side to side with mine day in and day out mine would run better.

Oh yeah, and that's not even including things like Idle Air Control which would give me a consitant idle under any condition and is near impossible to duplicate with port throttles

Agreed, or if you want to make it look cool, and have money to spend, I'd look into some ASM manifolds. Have it polished and Chrome plated and maybe shorten the runners a little for your RPM.

bcarpman

Have you been down this road before? you appear to be speaking from experience. That is why I posed this query.

ASM? an anacronym or a manufacturer? These are Fords. I can provide single plenum or tunnel rams with injection bosses. My TRs are tall for more midrange power. would that follow suit with EFI? Short versions are available.

I have not done this on a boat, but I have worked with every conceivable type of FI on cars and motorcycles. I did a port throttled FI motorcycle years before almost anyone else.

Sorry ASM = Arizona Speed Marine. Didn't know you were doing fords. The best way to do FI if you've got a good carbed tunnel ram that works is to cut off the top and weld on a plenum with the throttle body on the front (or where ever it will fit) It's quick and easy and if you use a high enough capacity Throttle body, you'll make at least as much power as you did with the carbs. Don't underestimate the size of the plenum. When we were testing this at GM, we kept getting more power almost as big as we could go. However you will lose throttle response if the plenum is too big.

Choose your runner length just as you would with the carbs- longer equals lower torque peak. Shorter = more power up top. There are some basic equations that will get you close, but you're better off going off experience from the carbs. Nice thing about the FI will be a little better driveability down low, and better economy if it's tuned right. Also, if you're currently running carbs that are sized a little small to get you around the docks, you can run as big of a throttle body as you'd like and make more power.

Bottom Line: Choose a manifold that works for you now. Put FI bosses in it, and a plenum on top. Choose a TB that's big enough for the power you are making. Use the electronics that are recommended by whoever will do your tunning.

PS. If you do it right you can make a pretty cool looking plenum.