Starter problems (starting to HATE this boat!)
 

In a new to the forum and have this very annoying and time consuming problem.

Okay. Embarrassing as it may be, after about 7 man hours and $200.00 worth of NEW starter I am STILL having the same starter issues......

1988 7.4L (non-mag) in a Chaparral Villan IV.
Symptoms are:

When it turn the key I get "Rurrrrrr, rurrrr". Kinda like a very dead battery.

What I have done so far:

1) As stated, REPLACED the starter (what a treat) only to find out that I have some other unknown issue.
2) Swapped batteries, (again, NEW) used jumper cables to other new batteries, bypassed the upper set of solenoids temporarily by just holding the wires together.


The battery cables get unbelievably HOT during this super slow turning over process. If I jog the jog about 12 times it will get enough gumption to finally turn and fire.


WTF??

I guess next I am looking at a bad ground and/or positive cable?

When I get a minute I am going to put a meter on the starter lug to check the voltage during the crank attempt, that should help me tell if I am dealing with a wire issue, correct?

PLEASE HELP, this is really putting a crimp in my end of season boating, the wife is totally fed up with my non-mechanic antics.

Make sure you have a good connection on cables. Sounds kinda like a bad ground connection. Cables are cheap so I would go ahead and replace them and take a wire brush to where you have the ground running to.

Thanks for the reply Brandon. I just noticed as I was cleaning the boat up this evening that the port side ground at the battery terminal end is all gummy and missing insulation now. I guess that is from what I was saying about them getting so darn hot?

I guess if that was going to be the problem I would wonder "why now"? Electrical/mechanical failure I can understand, but a cable just corroding or all the sudden causing me this much grief?

I'll pick up the cables first thing tomorrow and report back.

Anyone else have some other thoughts?

Sign of heat may help pinpoint problem, Just because its tight doesn't mean its a good connection corrosion is not a good conductor. A meter at starter may help to direct you. Have you cranked with spark plugs out? Water from leaking exhaust will cause similar problems. Good luck
Jim

Are the whole cables hot, not just the connections? If so, I doubt that a bad connection is your problem. It's flowing enough current to heat those cable, it's flowing plenty of current. I hate to say it, but it sounds like the engine is just turning over too hard. Pull the spark plugs, and try to turn the engine over with a breaker bar on the crankshaft pulley.

Interestingly, I just had the risers off last week to remove some mufflers.......(just before this problem reared it's head):o

Where would it be "leaking" from? Would new riser (the upper ones) gaskets be a starting point? There are NO signs of water leakage externally. The motor runs nice once it gets started, the idle has been giving me an hard time too though lately, been idling at about 400 in gear,...I've had to run it up a bit on the port side for docking and maneuvering around, would a low(er) idle for no reason be a symptom of a water leak? Just replaced the pump on that side this week too.

The spark plugs are a nightmare to get to, as with most any servicing of this boat.

So, I would remove just one plug? The oil is clean and golden, no signs of water or overfilled crankcase there.......

Crankshaft pulley doesn't have a nut or anything on it to use a bar on. Remember, I can make it run, it's just tough.

Yes, the entire cable is hot, both positive and like I said, I now noticed the ground cable issue.

Pull ALL the plugs?

Then what, what will I see or not see at that point?

You guys have me worried here.......

If you pull the plugs and it cranks over normal that would indicate possible water leaking into the cylinders. Possible hydra locking.

Then what, am I in serious trouble then?

The motor seems to be running fine, temps good, like I said, the oil appears okay on the stick.

Okay. This is like going to the doctor with some exotic rash, but.....

I have to admit my cheapness/stupidness in the hopes that THIS is my problem and I haven't caused irreversible damage at this point.
Her goes:
About two weeks ago I unbolted and lifted the risers up to make room for removing an inline muffler. I decided that it would be okay to just seat them back down with the same gaskets.

There, as dumb as I feel, I said it.

So..........

Am I screwed? I saved a whole $25 in gaskets.

Can I just clear the motor (if I do in fact have water in the cylinder) and install the new riser gaskets?

Can anyone say that this really IS a way to have a leak and hydro lock your motor?
Any thoughts on what I said about the idle problem on that side? Sound related to hydro-lock?

I've never seen an engine that didn't have a nut on the crankshaft (harmonic balancer), but it may be so. What holds the harmonic balancer on?

I'd just about bet you have water in a cylinder or two, if not all of them. Did you pull just one side off? If so, try pulling whatever plugs you can reach the easiest on that side, then try to turn it over. A riser leak is the number one cause of catastrophic engine failure. I wouldn't run it again, until you find out. Bent rods and such lovely things as that can be caused by leaking risers. Hopefully, it is a small amount of water leaking, if any. If the rings are still good, not much water would leak past them into the oil. Let's hope for the best.

Good luck.

There are three nuts that hold the lower pulley on, just not anything in the center of it to use.

It will not be run again until this is resolved, that is for sure.


Man, just like with my truck and other projects, this has me just about literally sick. I can't even kid myself into being tired enough to lay down and sleep, I'm just so stressed and feeling dumb about causing this. And to think, two hours ago I was still thinking I had a starter problem.

Really appreciate the help, I'm thinking my best bet is to let someone who does this for a living straighten this out for me. Even though it will cost me, I think I am about done with playing mechanic for now.

So, in conclusion tonight, this more than likely IS caused by a bad riser gasket seal?

Once cleared, gasket replaced and oil changed I could be on my way, lesson learned?

I bet you will be OK. Just remove the plugs and check for water. If you are not seeing water in the oil a change or two should clean it up. Change the riser gasket in any case.

If you do find water in the cylinders I would put a little oil in through the spark plug holes and crank it over a few time before firing it. Might want to listen for something bent inside or run a compression test. I don't know if a compression test would point to a bent rod but it could not hurt to check. If something is bent I bet it would be cheaper to fix it before firing it up.

Hydro Lock.


I got the outer side plugs out, one cylinder gushed water just taking the plug out. I turned it over (which my new starter did with ease this time) a and it shot some more water out of that cylinder, maybe one other. 3 out of 4 of the plugs are rusty and look VERY old.

I re-checked the oil, it looks golden and clear, not a millimeter higher or lower than when I changed it 7 hours ago.

I will be doing an oil and filter change, is there anything else I need to look at? There never was any bad sounds coming from that side, nothing out of the ordinary as far as I could hear, but as you can probably tell from my stories, I'm not mechanic.

Drain that exhaust manifold. Leave hose feeding it off. Start and run engine on hose for about 10 seconds until it smooths out to dry motor internally. You must have a bad exhaust manifold and or riser. If you separate the two you can inspect for holes or cracks. Don't let sit it will lock up a day or two.
Jim

The riser gasket was missing a piece, between the inside an outside chambers (excuse my ignorance).

That will do it, correct?

Does the engine sound fine when turning over? If so, new gaskets (be sure to clean the old one's off completely), and new plugs you should be ok. I use Marvel Mystery Oil when I prelube the cylinders. It's also THE BEST for freeing up a frozen engine.

Good luck.

Yes, it sounds totally normal. (Sounds a little funny with the one side plugs out, but that is to be expected).

I have MMO, will use it if I can devise a way to get it in there.

Check for excessive steam coming out the exhaust. I had a leaky riser gasket and developed a "steamy" condition, noticably at idle and getting on plane. Also some blue smoke at idle. Valves got pitted and one tulipped and bent a valve guide.

Yes, steam (we thought it was a light haze/smoke) is one of my symptoms.

I have both of the surfaces clean on one side of the port motor, I am going out to finish up that side now.

Alrighty then, it only took me just about all day, but thanks to the instructions from you fine folks, it seems I have fixed my boat for the time being.
New riser gaskets (BOTH on the port side had gaping holes), new plugs, fresh oil change.

There IS some milky oil in the heads, and a tiny bit came out with the suction tube oil change.
What to do about this now? I planned on running it a little more, doing another change and see what I come up with.

Would it be wise to have the heads pulled and redone this winter? We only have about 2 or so more good weekends here in Maryland, season is about over.

Let me know what you think, motor sounds fine, idle smooth (again!), fires right over with no hesitation at this point.

Any other tips would be greatly appreciated, and again, thank you all very much for the help.

From my experience I would say call it a season and have the heads looked at !! You may get it done in time to enjoy a few more nice fall days.

You need to change the oil several times. Get some cheap oil and run it on the hose. Getting it up to temp may be hard to do on the hose thought. Big thing is that some types of filter media in the oil filter tend to plug up with water. Use a Napa filter and you should be ok. If you have the means to change the oil while out on the water run it a 20 minutes or so and change with cheap oil (filter too) then to good oil and one more change with good oil. Make sure you fog it down REALLY good this winter.

The leakdown test will tell you if you need to do the heads or not.