Donzi

I never said it was easy to do.. Simple, yes... Then again, what I consider simple, may be not simple for others.. As far as everyone doing it, not likely.. Too much marketing VS science for that to happen.. Hell, why are people still using carburetors and roots blowers when an EFI with a Lysholm type compressor is much more efficient with EFI..? I do not even need to mention turbocharging.....

Smitty,

Thanks for the tips and friendly sugestions.... Never said I was the first one to think of coatings and use them on a piston.. Read every single post I have ever made on this forum, and I'm sure it will be absolutely clear.

Second, I have also never said that I will try to run AFR of X, or Y.. However, a goal of .45 BSFC was on the wish list. No secret in the cam, I just agreed with someone not to discuss it yet.

Third, if there are already examples of the intercooler product existing in other applications, then no reason it can't work in this application under wot.

Fourth, There is more than just a big cam to get additional flow in the chamber. In addition, if a cam with large overlap is used for any positive pressure application, then the mixture is just blown out the exhaust as you may or may not know... So, no plans for a big overlap cam.. I will not get into ramp rate, etc., as this will take too much time here. The data is there, and I'm sure it's readily available in any SAE literature. Also not going into mixture quality, turbulence, swirl, tumble, or any of this stuff. Again, it's readily available..

Fifth, there are other things in the head design that can account for more power. You're a smart guy, so you should know what I mean.


Oh, the comment about any marine manufacturer.... Not too many out there making engines... GM is Mercury for Gasoline Sterndrives, and is the majority of the applications. Sure, I could go use the ILMOR stuff, Ferrari, or Lamborghini, or even Porsche... But, Chevy parts are cheap, and plentiful..

And, as far as cranes and cherrypickers go, I already own a crane, and cherry pickers and several engine stands.. And yes, this boat thing is just another hobby.. I do plan on changing motors... now, for the custom pistons in duplicate sets, well, maybe, but that would be for different motors.. ;)
I'm building 3 different engines for the same boat.. How else can I test my scientific theories..? I might have been born on a Saturday, just not last Saturday..

Cheers, :evilb:

R

I truly know the difference, I've been calibrating vehicles for SULEV and Super Ultra Low Emissions for years, and have been calibrating marine engines for 10 years. We were also the first aftermarket company, in the world to purchase and distribute Horiba air fuel meters, which are the most accurate meters made. So I've been around the block.

So, with today's aftermarket and some automotive OE wide band sensors, letting the PCM control the air fuel ratio, via the output of the sensors is great for dyno tuning and getting your feet wet. But in the end, you need to calibrate the PCM and limit it's ability to add/subtract fuel until you have the calibration done. You then need to remove the sensors, don't leave them in, burning fuel on them while they're not hot also hurts the sensor. You can then reinstall them and check every once in awile. Whether you believe it or not, every time you use your sensor, it's deteriorating, but the processor that receives the input constantly changing the sensor calibration (every on/off cycle).

Marine applications are based around water and moisture, and almost all exhaust systems have water for cooling, and most boats have exhaust tips that are exposed to water. So as I said, it's more than likely that there will be water or moisture at some point, vs. the chances that there isn't water.

Thanks,
Dustin

Dude, a wheel is round. It is that way for a reason. Why are you guys trying to re-invent it?
Why try to live-time tune your fuel with 02 sensors? Are you trying to save gas? Is that extra 2 hp you gain at optimum fuel/air ratio really worth the hassle & expense of all this?
I don't think so.
Your money would be better spent making sure the hull & rigging is where it is supposed to be.
But what do I know.

Hi Dustin,

Your points are well taken.. And yes, I can spell Horiba, and have known about them for quite a long time as well. I also know I can run controllers other than the PCM series that can allow other variables to be controllable for a lot less $$$, and the benefits of closed loop for total control VS open loop all the time..

All this discussion on burning out the sensors etc... I am well aware of the electron transfer on the tip of the sensor, and that they wear out.. For the $100 per sensor, I can afford to replace them every season.. Maybe I should have stated this earlier.. This is nothing compared to the overall cost of running an old boat like mine every season.

I have also stated that my preference is to have EGT's for individual cylinder monitoring, but the O2 widebands are a compromise. I do appreciate all the info, but will still run closed loop. If it blows up from this, I will also let you guys know..

Jason,

I am not trying to re-invent the wheel. I just want my wheel made to my specifications... No more, no less... I do appreciate all the tips and usable information.. I also even appreciate the marketing that is understood to be fact when it is not.... It proves that there is a lot more to some simple stuff other than selling products, or so many are led to believe.

However, with that said, there is some stuff out there that I can readily buy and use.. This is what I am doing for the most part.. Some stuff is one off, but not that much.. And as far as 2 hp from closed VS open loop, that's not the point. The point is to have a self compensating, self optimizing system that is much more efficient at regulating itself based on load conditions.

If I can also achieve a .41 BSFC vs .61 BSFC on the same size engine, at the same rated power output, then I will use less than 30% of the fuel to do so... It's maybe worth some investigation on my part in the name of efficiency..

Further, there are quite a few 500 CI motors that throw down 1000 HP & TQ and rev to 7500 RPM on pump gas with a dinosaur carburetor... (About 125HP per liter of displacement) Why is it such an impossibility to believe that it can't be done with a supercharged EFI motor in a boat..? The motor does not care where it is... It just ingests air and fuel..

This entire exercise in a test of ideas in my old boat, and to learn a few things along the way. I just do not see why it is not physically possible to achieve some performance

Thanks,

R

I'm not saying it can't be done, just asking why do it when there is so many others out there that already do it in a different way?
It seems that you are wanting to make more power with less fuel.
Personally, I don't see the advantage in saving a few hundredths of a gallon per HP over a proven combination.
God bless you for trying. I went thru a unproven combination with my boat last season. Everyone said it would never work & I think it is a very well put togather combination that has proved its self over the last season to many people that said it would never work.
I do think you are off your rocker, but again, it is people that are willing to try things that make advances.

Blue 242,either you are one eccentric dude or your blowing alot of smoke.
Lets get this straight-your building 3 different experimental engines for a 1989 formula 242
1 of them is going to be a big cube 588 with a m-1 procharger,custom fuel injection,custom innercooler,secret cam technology where your going to have a cam ground that is big enough to support a 700 plus hp N/A 588 but small enough to not revert water to the sensors,closed loop system with 02 sensors giving constant feedback to the fuel map with small injectors and shooting for a bsfc of around .41-.45- and you have no plans of dyno tuning the set-up at all,just doing your tuning on the water-WOW,I though MY custom twin rail efi set-up was out of the ordinary!!!!:eek:
Your on a roll here so you might as well tell us about the other engines too,maybe a twin turbo diesel and a rotary engine or what? I'm not saying you can't at least do some of the things you want to do,I made 1115 hp from a 540 blowing thru a home-modified 502 mpi sytem and I had quite a few "experts" tell me the limit was 850 -900 hp,good luck with your endeavors,keep us posted. Just keep one thing in mind,your probably not the first one that wants to do the things your saying your going to try to do,its just if they worked you would see the tech applied to boats already,Smitty

Why is it so difficult to fathom that a guy can have 3 motors for his boat...? BBC's are a dime a dozen, and can be found on virtually every corner in the USA.. Heck man, it's not like I was building a custom Porsche/Ferrari/Aston Martin V8 or something... And those have been done...

Twin rail fuel injection is not new to me... It has been done many yeas ago, and in fact I am going to use a twin rail small injector EFI setup on the custom intake for the Gen 5 motor... I used to buy HKS Injector controllers many years ago that can control 8 additional injectors as a function of RPM and manifold pressure. I may even have one (An HKS AIC III) left over in the parts bin from back then. (NO I am not going to use it on the BBC, there are now better options).

If you think that your twin rail setup is extraordinary in a boat, and you are representative of the boating community, then I have to say maybe the boat community is way behind, using dinosaur technology, and you guys need to wake up from all the marketing crap floating around.

A Ford RS 500 Cosworth as a production car had twin rail fuel injection on it's 2 Liter engine in late 80's early 90's. The new Ford GT 40 remodel of the old Le mans Car uses 2 injectors per cylinder in its 5.4 liter engine. Hennessey just built a twin turbo version with 1000HP on EFI... In all the magazines for everyone to see.

I designed a dual injector block for one of my Porsches more than 5 years ago in CAD.. What would prevent me from adapting this block to a BBC...? The pic is attached for you to see.

This is not some kind of extraordinary dark matter particle physics experiment. BBC's have been making 1000 HP N/A for years with a dinosaur carb.

Heck, you can get 1000 HP from a 2.3 Liter Turbocharged Ford. (Modified RS 200). BMW made 1000 HP with a turbo 4 Cylinder back in the 1970's.. On mechanical fuel Injection.. A 3.8 Liter Porsche Turbo 6 Cylinder can make 800+ HP on pump gas with EFI, why the hell can't a properly prepared 9+ Liter BBC...?

There is documented proof of a Normally Aspirated 565CI BBC making 1050 HP on the Westech Dyno on SOCAL with a Dinosaur 1050 Demon Carb using 91 Octane.. I could just go buy one of these motors for $30K all day long..

So what gives? Why is it so difficult for you guys to grasp about this...?? Ill informed, or don't understand the math...? Why can't a similar number be achieved with a small supercharger and EFI......? You're getting 1115HP, why can't I get similar numbers with a better designed system than the Mercury junk...?

As far as the being done already and being done in boats already, I have to disagree, I have yet to see a complete Opcon System in a boat in the US... I saw a guy in Sweden using an Opcon Compressor, but am not sure he used the intercooler.

In addition, all I keep hearing is that it's not possible, and I'm crazy for trying..

For the record, the the engines in my garage are 1 Gen 5, 2 MK IV's, and 1 GEN 7... All big block Chevy based..

As far as me being eccentric or blowing smoke, all I have to say, is that for the same reasons that others have told you that you can only make 800-900 HP and you are making 1115HP, is one of the reasons that I am saying that it can be done. I just went to the trouble of calculating it out and doing a bit of research to get the math and physics right before doing the complete build.

Maybe I'm eccentric, but I have no reason on earth to blow smoke.. I am extremely comfortable with who I am, and what I am capable of doing. I have said 100 times, and will say again, this is a hobby to test an idea that I had while repowering my old boat...

When the motors are done, what prevents me from putting it in another hull..? Or in a hull with #6 or Arneson Drives etc.. Guys, get real... Stop thinking in the box.. The engine world is bigger, and better than Mercury marine, Arizona Speed and Marine, and many others that claim that the limit is where they set it..

Thanks,

R

Dude! Write a book, then we'll buy it and read it when we have time!

Blue242, why are you spending all this money on a piece of sh!t boat?
I am full of sh!t 99.9% of the time, but, dude, you take it to the next level.

:evilb::evilb: