Oil Pump Failure?
 

I know this is a little long but want to make sure you guys know what is going on so, here goes.

I have a pair of 350 Mag MPI's in my Formula 292.
Boat is a 2002 and engines have 500 hrs on them now.

They have both been strong running motors until 4th of July when the starboard motor started acting up.

Everything was fine for the first 2 hours or so then as we were idleing through a no wake zone, the alarms went off.
I had 20PSI oil pressure in both and temps were normal. None of the lights in the gauges were on so I bumped the throttle on port motor and had power and tried the same with starboard one and found that this is the one with the problem.

Shut it down popped the hatch, didn't see anything out of the ordinary and started it back up. Gauges were fine again and alarm wen't off about a minute or so later.

This went on a couple times until I got out to a open area where I didn't have to worry about hitting anybody.

Drive res. was full, oil level was fine and gauge is working, temp was fine, etc.

Brought it home, put the hoses to it and ran for 35 minutes and alarm went off again. Found some debris in the drain on the right exhaust manifold, cleaned it out and fired it back up for 40 minutes at idle and everything was fine.

Splash it in the lake following morning and ran around for 30-40 minutes and alarm goes off again.

I shut it down got it back on the trailer and dropped it off at the marina so they could take a look at it Monday.

Here is where it gets interesting. The marina checks it out the following Friday and says that the oil pick up tube for the pump came off and they send me an estimate for $2,800 to pull motor, replace bearings, pump, etc.

They said they sucked 3/4 of a quart out and the alarms went off again and the gauge finally dropped to 0. They then filled it back to normal and added a quart and a half and said it ran fine again. So this is where they say it is the pick up tube that is out.

I decide to go over and take a look at the engine since they gave me an estimate and when I get there, they havent even pulled the motor yet but tell me that they just had one of these motors do the same thing a month or so ago and that is what it cost to fix that one.

So they finally pull the motor today and I show up again un announced to check things out and see that the pick up tube is still firmly in place and they tell me that the pump just took a crap and that is what the problem is.

I may not know alot about engines but I do know some and if the gauge is still reading fine and has pressure but the alarm is going off, doesn't this sound more like a sending unit issue instead of a pump problem?

This just is not making sense to me.

I don't know if they checked the sending unit but I will be looking to see if there is a new one in there when I get he call saying it is ready to be picked up.

Is it worth it to have them pull the other engine and replace that pump as well?

The bearings, crank, and everything else looks good in the one that is tore apart right now but I will have them put new bearings in while we are at this point.

Are the sending units for the gauge and computer on the back of the motor at the original oil filter location?

Any advise would be greatly appreciated.

Sounds like your getting some major smoke blown up your azz. Take it somewhere else!!

Sounds like a bunch of parts changers

I am thinking the same thing at this point.

i have never seen an oil pump fail. i have seen them crack when they have had trash run thru them but never seen one that is intact simply stop pumping oil. as stated above... i too think your guys are wrong but i'm not sure i would just plunk it back in without having an answer i believed in, either.

one thing does stand out tho... they said the got about a quart out so they surmised the pick up broken... a good guess... two things... is it possible you were just way down on oil ( unlikely ) or is this like that thread of a week ago where , as you have guessed, the wire to the sending unit was loose... but that would not explain the 1 quart deal...

Ok, I'm a little lost from the post..sorry, but did the gauge ever show low/no oil pressure ?? with you..I have seen oil pump relief valve stick one time and resulted in no oil pressure after changing oil..if you always had oil pressure and only the alarm was going off sounds like a bad sending unit for the alarm, they are differnt from the gauge...

All other details aside, the fact still remains that they told you the pickup tube was broken before they had even pulled the engine out of the boat!

Then you saw with your own eyes the tube that was not broken. That being said I wouldnt trust any thing they tell you at all.

RRRRRUUUUUUUUUUUNNNNNNNN!!!!!!! from those thieves.

If the pickup tube fell out, it would be exactly the same as if you were drinking a soda and someone took the straw. No matter how hard you sucked or for how long, you're only going to suck air. Now, if you put 4 or 5 gallons into the crankcase- enough to rise up and reach the pump, it would draw again- but only then.

Plus, if you ran this engine on any sort of load for mere moments without oil pressure, you would have certainly spun a rod bearing... at a minimum. That would be indicated by a loud knocking noise.

The pump "taking a crap" is insane. The oil pump in a small block Chevy is more reliable than a claw hammer. The SBC motor needs little oil pressure to live.

And $2800 about double what the R&R on an engine and replacing a pump should cost. If the pump did go bad and it needs "bearings", it also needs the crank turned and all the metal shavings removed. Basically, a rebuild.

The oil pressure gauge in the dash never dropped to 0 until they they sucked about 3/4 of a quart out.

These engines never use oil and I check them every time I put it in the water.

If I am not mistaken there are 2 sending units for oil. One for the gauge and 1 for the buzzer. I would replace the sending unit for the buzzer before you repair the motor.

Hate to say it but I think you are throwing money away since when the buzzer went off the oil did not go low. There are a number of items that cause the buzzer to go off. Could be anyone of them besides oil pressure. I wonder what they are going to say after they get done with the engine and buzzer goes off again.

I just talked with the service writer and told him that I want to be there when they get it done and ready for lake test run.

otherwise I am not paying the bill.

I have stressed my concerns that I don't believe the problem was the oil pump and that I will be getting a bill for work that may not have needed to be done in the first place.

Be careful. They can take your boat and hold it on a mechanic's lien and tell you to f- off. I had it happen once. It took me months to get my truck back (they went out of business in the process) and then I had to sue. I made out OK in the end but it took me 3 yerars to finally win- and way more work than it was worth. I'd bet the price of the repair bill they've boned you once so they'll have no problem sticking it to you again. Pay by check or credit card and demand to see all the old parts.

print a copy of this thread and show them.


What you are describing would be like going to the doctor for chest pain and he takes your blood pressure and tells you you need a tripple bypass surgery.

Wow
 

this sounds like BS to me ... the alarms going off on an MPI motor?? What did the DDT tell them when they scanned it? Or did they scan it? If the alarm is going off - the scanner will tell you what's going on. There was a reason... If it was truly low oil pressure they should of removed the sender and verified with a manual gauge -

Telling you up front before the motor was ever tore down and inspected that "This is what's the problem and here's how much it is" is total BS.

Good Luck!

I know and you are right but they seem to have a phone problem over there again since they cannot dial out so I figured I will keep on them a bit to make sure I stay involved in this to try and make sure I am not going to pay for something that was not needed.

They said they scanned it and the code was for low oil pressure but this could just be a lie as well.

On top of it all, when I dropped it off for them to look at, I ran into the sales manager and one of the sales guys (who has been trying on and off to get me to trade my 292 in on a 353 )and just kiiding around, I asked them if they were ready for me to demo a 353 for the day since mine broke.

This friggin guy just doesn't understand the word NO.:angry-smiley-038:
He is the only one that apperantley has a phone that dials out of this place.

I have also told them I want all the parts back that came out so I can take a better look at them and tear the old oil pump apart.

Tell them that the OSO Jackals are drooling, just waiting for you to come back on here & post their phone and fax numbers and tell us how they F'ed you.

This crap never ceases to amaze me. The oil pump went bad my butt...

Will do! Hopefully we will only have to wait another day or so.

Thanks for everybodies input here. I appreciate it.

Now I just have to calm the wife down since she is still worried we won't have a boat for our LOTO trip on the 29th.

I warned them that I would be the least of their problems and that I have a really pissed off brunette at the house that wants to strangle every one of them.

I think I may just take her with wind her up and let her go in and unload for a change.

Isn't the saying it is the quiet shy ones you have to watch out for?:eek:

Ok, the symtons were correct for pick up falling off..seen it happen a few times and from what they said would have been a good guess...and lets face it there is no crystal ball to look into on these things. on what they should have told you was this is what it seems like to us but we will not know for sure until we pull the oil pan. and yes oils pumps can fail..not often but as I said before if the relief valve screws up it will effect the oil pressure, not sure why it would go to 0 when removing 3/4 quart..but they will run with ok pressure with normal oil level with pick up off, but will drop on higher rpm of deaccel....had one come off my own years ago. not supporting the marina all out but don't slam them either cause no one here knows for sure what the issue is at this point...everybody can guess...even the techs....and sometimes thats what you have to do....Rob

I understand that things can happen, parts can break, etc.
I am not slamming them but since i don't know exactly how they checked it out or what was done during diagnosing the problem, I think there may have been a couple things overlooked in the begining.

The part that has me pissed more than anything is their lack of effort to call me and let me know what is going on.

When I got there yesterday and saw the motor was in pieces in the shop tore apart and covered up, I asked why they did not call and let me know what they found and the answer was "we gave you the estimate and the parts are on order"

This would have been fine if the pick up tube was actually off the pump but that is not the case.

I am in sales as well and even though sometimes I may not like doing it, I need to make the calls and let customers know what was found with their equipment and that it maybe wasn't what everybody thought it was and go from there.

They are not going to be easy to deal with because they pulled and tore down an engine that didn't need it. Just because "another engine had the same symptoms a month ago and that was it", hardly means that was what's wrong with your engine. When you run an engine with no oil pressure you score the bearings and tear up the crank journals. Seems to me you're paying for work you didn't need.
That engine will set off a buzzer for high water pump pressure if that sender goes bad. Smartcraft has a fault history mode so there shouldn't be the need for guessing.

[QUOTE=debcod2;2626970]When I got there yesterday and saw the motor was in pieces in the shop tore apart and covered up, I asked why they did not call and let me know what they found and the answer was "we gave you the estimate and the parts are on order"

This would have been fine if the pick up tube was actually off the pump but that is not the case.

QUOTE]

Back your truck up to the door load your parts up and leave! If a shop spouted off a smart azzed remark like that, I would come un fuking glued!

Speaking of a crystal ball, you should check out the new borescope from snap on. Little computer screen nice unit. They def. could have stuck that in and saw the pick up tube. Close as we are getting to that crystal ball lol. But we have seen pick ups come off.

[QUOTE=THRILLSEEKER;2627328]i know this is where i get savaged again but it seems to me that when they gave him the estimate and he said " ok" ... then thats it... as much as they seem to be taking advantage and maybe not doing the right thing at all, if i read this right, he DID authorise the work.

seems to me the time to ask these questions was before... BUT... in a lot of states there is a requirement for the work to be authorized in writing... a signiture on the repair order....

if this is one of those states and you wanted to make a beef over it , you might still be able to.

[QUOTE=stevesxm;2628161]I did auththorize them to work on my boat but I also asked them at the time they gave me this estimate and before they pulled the motor if they checked the simple things first like making sure it wasn't a loose wire or a faulty sending unit and they said those were fine and wires looked good.

Decided to swing by this afternoon and the motor is going back together and will hopefully be back in tomorrow.

While I was there talking with the mechanic, I noticed that they finally pulled the old oil pupm apart. I asked if they found anything out of the ordinary with it and he said they think the relief valve may be wore out but they werent a 100% sure on that.

At this point one of the two service writers and the sales guy who is trying to sell me a 35' are gathered around and I asked the question again about the wires and the sending units. The tech tells me he was not the one that did the lake test or checked the computer but he said that he didn't think they checked the sending unit.

So, as we are all gathered around, I ask the best question of all.

What are we going to do if the alarms go off and motor shuts down again after going through all this and it turns out to be a $30 sending unit?

2 out of 3 responses were "thats a good question"

My response was if this is what it turns out to be is a bad sending unit, looks like you just put a new oil pump and bearings in for free!

At this point, the tech all the sudden had to hit the can in the worst way and the service writer says we will cross that bridge when we get to it and takes a call and last but not least, the sales guy says he would be pissed and probably wouldnt pay the bill either.

I kind of think they have finally figured out that they are not going to be able to pull the wool over my eyes and get away with it.

I guess we will know for sure monday afternoon at the latest.

So what happened???

you dont think the shop would have snuck in after Debcod2 left and intalled a "good" used sender? :eek:

That's what I was thinking would probably happen. I would have marked it somehow and checked it after...