ecu programing
 

lighting headers recommend tuning the ecm on efi motors.. i have an 01 454 mpi motor is there a place i could send the ecm for a tune.

I wouldn't waste the money. Those engines are a little fat anyway. You should be ok.

We can help you out with this, print out this form and fill it out the best you can and then give us a call to place the order. I would say this in combination with a fuel pressure regulator would be a great upgrade for your application.

Thanks,
Hardin Marine

you are wasting your money. unless the motor has had a significant compression ratio increase or other genuine and meaningful mechanical reconfiguration, thye fuel and iginition tables in the stock programming are very good , gains from the hot rod ecu tuners are generally minimal and often, depending on the shop, cause more issues than they resolve.

the smart move is to leave it stock.

There is a great deal of truth in modifying a ECU on a engine that has not been modified there seldom are any real substantial gains. But in the event you install a high flow tubular exhaust system it is rare that the factory programming will support the fuel and spark requirements caused by releasing the engines exhaust back pressure. Often the factory tuning develops a lean condition that results in some driveability issues as well as possible engine failure.

So here's a thought the Manufacture (Not us) Lightning MFG. makes a suggestion to re-program even though they don't do it themselves?(So no gain for them) Even though they have a Dyno and do testing of there own product(So they do have knowledge). So you take some friendly forum members advice and decide not to reprogram your ecu and you lift the ring lands off of the pistons or deteriorate an exhaust valve caused by the additional cylinder temps from the maybe lean condition. Who's fault will it be that you burned your motor down after you didn't follow the manufactures directions?. Granted the manufacture maybe isn't the end all be all of every situation but traditionally the suggestions are made to provide you and your boat a level of security it seems obvious to me that the manufacture has your best interest at heart. Why not just follow the manufactures direction? The loss of an engine seems huge as apposed to the minimal cost savings ($300.00).

i have put probably 300 sets of exhaust on efi motors from 1600 cc to 8.4 litre. of those at least half were done on the dyno with carte blanc to do anything that was required. in no case have i ever seen an exhaust only change change the egts in any significant fashion. not once. and in at least 50 % of the cases where motors crossed my dyno with reprogrammed ecus, the results were worse than stock with those that did make improvements at the extreme top where the stock systems tend to lean a bit , the sacrifices made elsewhere in the curve gave less total area under the curve.

are there magic bean ecu's for stock motors? i suppose.

but ive never seen one. what i see are a lot of " gee... i had my ecu reprogrammed and now the boat belches black smoke and is slower "

how many times on here has tyler crockett had to get IN the boat to re program in service after he's done it on the dyno... and thats a knowledgeable guy with his own motors... yet somehow some third party box is going to arrive in the mail and be better then what the guys at the factory did very specifically for that motor when their whole job was to do nothing than spec what that motor needed ?

i suppose. but not with my money and not with my motor.

Steve it seems as if you have provided a great deal of valuable advice to a large number of OSO family members. So I do have a great deal of admiration. On this particular engine I need to respectfully disagree. As an exhaust manufacture this particular claim appears incorrect based on our true testing of the 7.4L 454 Mercury Magnum marine engine in question when going from the 2.5" outlet cast manifolds to a 2" primary tube 4" collector style of marine header. We have seen at least 8% EGT climbs on this application during testing on the Superflow SF902 Dyno. Now is that to much temperature? well from our experience we would like to be back down in the parameters of the OEM tuning program.

No sir I don't know of magic bean ECU's either. Just engine's that run better when they are properly tuned to a particular specification? As opposed to a OEM base tuned ecu on a modified engine application. Like everything in our industry theres quality work and then theres........

I like you have seen many improperly reprogammed ecu's we get the call nearly every day from one customer to another. And like you don't believe nor do we promote the service on unmodified engines. I have also seen the Pro's guys like Tyler Crocket, Jim at ASM, and Precision as well as a couple of others with a great deal of "In The Boat" tuning experience take those programs and provide them to consumers NO not Dyno tunes but real world tunes in a boat. All of our exhaust testing is first performed on the Dyno and our ECU tuning from real world applications so that we have the ability to provide this service to our customers.

Actually, when you change the stock, ugly, non-flowing, milk carton looking exhaust with a long runner tubular header, you will see a noticable gain in low rpm torque (up to 4000rpm). You will see a slight gain in power.

Because this is slightly different, it will still run for the most part fine with stock computer, but, Hardin is correct, you can gain even more and benefit from the proper calibration. First, you can bump the rpm limit, always help squeek a few ponies out of her, then you can bump the spark, because Mercury ran hardly any spark in the 01 454 MEFI3 computer at WOT, only a bunch at part throttle. Next, you can actually richen the AF below 4000rpm, because it will be slightly lean here with the tubular header change. All in all, you can certainly make the package better with a properly programmed ECM and tubular headers. Last, they can modify the map, because changing the headers DOES change the engine volumetric efficiency, enough that I agree, a proper tune should be done.

Just my .02

Thanks,
Dustin

Make sure that whoever changes your ECU for any reason that they provide you with the bin file and do not lock your ECU else you are capative to the tuner,


www.mefituning.com no lock and furnishes bin file.

PS your changes do not require a reflash to perform

tunertech - you know what you are doing!

Years ago I switched to lightning headers from merc exhaust when I had a blown 502,I was expecting a 400-600 rpm top end gain (as claimed). I gained ZERO top end rpm's and a slight mid range tq increase,needless to say I was less then thrilled. I did have the ecu reprogrammed several times at the time but it was already reprogrammed for the blower. I think the stock exhaust port (I had merlin heads at the time which have close to stock exhaust flow numbers) doesn't flow too great so the exhaust doesn't give you the kind of gain you would see on a good flowing head. The thing that does suk on lightning headers more than anything is there is no good way to mount a 02 sensor to see what your afr really is to tune it properly,Smitty

why not just give out free copies of mefiburn so no one is capative to any one. I'm sure you spent alot of time developing your soft ware, but tuners spend alot of time on there cals also. Some eng builders don't even want to give there cam specs out. I like some of the featurs of your stuf, but not sure about the free love on the cals. I have alot of time "money" invested on the dyno and water in the cals that I have, not ready to give all that away.

Well there you have it from three of the best in the industry.

Whipple - Hardin Marine - Mark Boos

I think it is very wise to cover all your bases when doing modifications to any marine engine. What is $350.00 when you are talking tens of thousands invested in your engine, down time and being on the end of a tow rope? Good cheap insurance in my opinion and hopefully as Dustin pointed out you will see some additional gains in your investment.

Mark I would not give your knowledge and programs away. Those of us that know you can confirm the time and money you have invested and you deserve to see a return on that investment. The service and piece of mind that you provide is priceless in my opinion. You make it look very easy but we don't see those long hours and all the headaches you went through to get to this point.

I have seen a lot of folks cut corners and as the old saying goes "Pay now or Pay later". It is always cheaper to pay now.

Just my opinion

Get-R-Wet

8% of 1200 is 96. i would suggest that unless this motor is doing something extremely unusual, ( and i would guess if its stock and running flat out on at least average good gas that its probably seeing egts in the 1100 to 1150 range ) that that extra hundred , if it shows up, isn't going to detrimental in any respect.

exhaust tuning was a very big part of what i did. a lot of the classes i dealt with used low compression motors with very very mild cams. every bit of power you could steal was worth killing your mother over. from this work, i can tell you that, unless the original exhaust sytem was absolutely scrap... which was , of course , possible... there were no huge and certainly no dangerlously lean exhaust system changes we ever stumbled across. i can remember doing some 400 inch firebird transam motor... box stock with factory cast iron manifolds. made 305 hp or so. egts at 1100. did nothing but unbolt the cast iron manifolds and bolt on an early set of factory manifolds with the factory dual exhaust from a much earlier varient of the car. instant 355 hp and no change in the egts that even suggested rejetting.

i believe the factory guys are good at this. i have said that before. i would expect that if we took the motor that started this discussion and bolted it to the dyno and ran it back to back with the exhausts you would see a minimal increase... 5 hp maybe ... 10 at the absolute outside. i would predict that if you then tweeked the fuel and the ignition curves on the dyno to the best of your ability you might see another 5 peak MAX and a bit more in the middle maybe... and i emphasize maybe.

for a 8000 boat that goes 60 mph to overcome that drag in a fashion that gets you another 5 mph is close to 50 hp per motor.

so... whats the cost benefit analysis here ? if the exhaust was truely the junk tiny little merc ones, then a set of gills or something along with the computer work sets you back what, 3 grand a motor ? for 10 hp peak MAYBE which might equate to an increase in performance of 1 mph ... maybe.

doesn't make any sense to me.

there was a post here about a month ago where a motor guy did a proper marine exhaust dyno comparison... 4 or 5 different sets with good repeatability... and the results were as expected. the manufacturers claims were , essentially blue sky bullsht.

there is no magic to any of this. nothing is for free. if you want more power, it comes from changing the thermodynamic properties of the motor. that comes from significantly changing the mechanical makeup. i believe that the manufacturers of aftermarket performance equipment ( msd as an example) prey upon enthusiasts that so desperately want to " believe" that they will piss away their money on almost any promise at all.

it is my opinion that the vast majority of aftermarket " one size fits all" performance "tuning" products are , for all intents and practical purposes, worthless without the necessary mechanical changes needed to make the desired power.

prove me wrong. show me the independant dyno runs of a box stock factory 502 mag mpi with the stock ecu and no correction factors, followed back to back with the " tuned" ecu. show me where the factory left 50 hp on the table because they wanted to go to lunch early that day.

I have to admit I have never put exhaust on a Firebird Trans am but I sure as hell have on a 502 MAG. So you say prove it? How about a gentlemens bet because I think talks cheap and we should both put our money where our mouth is. I have a great idea I will put my money where my mouth Is I will bet you $5000.00 I can make a 30 horsepower change with a set of lighting headers on a 502 Mag over a stock cast iron manifold change? Put the money up and I will put mine up and prove it. As long as when were done the wrong person admits they don't know anything about 502 Mags and Tubular headers Other than that we are all wasting our time on opinions. have a great day.Dustin and Mark I will split the winnings with ya. :ernaehrung004:

Well said Mr. Cal Man! You know, you and I, as well as others have worked our butt's getting these cals right. Modifying knock tables, ignition and idle settings, elevation and temp settings to be better than the OE cals. We've gone through the goods and the bads, we're the ones that have taken the flack when something isn't right, or there's something odd. We trouble shoot, problem solve and continue to support all these computers, we even offer advice and help others that don't have our product our services. But donating calibrations for a minimal fee, so everyone can share all our hard work, financial investment and technical know-how? Ya, no thanks. More than willing to give advice, help a fellow boater out, but thats as far as it goes.

Thanks

I can tell you first hand, I'm not a big fan of exhaust systems. Most claim huge numbers for such low dollars when I'm selling a SC that makes 50% in most cases. But the fact is, the 93-2001 454 and 502 mag have horrible, horrible, horrible exhaust systems. They work, they flow air, they last a pretty long time, and lord knows they're not going to blow away in a wind storm! With that being said, a "tubular" long runner header such as Hardin's, Lightning and CMI all will make a noticeable difference in torque. If you couple that with the proper calibration, you will see benefits. Because every boat is different, I can't tell you what you would gain, but there is a difference. So did Mercury leave HP on the table, hell ya they did! They don't have to squeek everything out of her, they weren't dealing with emissions at the time, and were mainly looking for minimal warranty claims. Therefore, they are setup safe and conservative. They also were made cheap, they didn't put CMI headers like the 500hp EFI, because those cost at least 5 times as much. Would they benefit, yes, actually they would. OE's, and yes, I know, since I deal with them all the time, pick a power level, then achieve it the cheapest and most effective way. They want the highest profit possilbe while minimizing warranty claims. They wanted 385hp, that motor, which came from GM, made it easy. They just had to marinize it. It had nothing to do with going to lunch early, or a friday motor, its because they were able to achieve their goals with they already had been producing.

The 500hp efi was essentially the 502 mag, but different headers, valvetrain and intake manifold. It was all of 75hp different. Some was in the header, some in the cam.

Maybe the customer wants to run 91 octane, then you can run 5 deg's more spark, and those motors have no problem with that. Maybe he wants 89, then he can run 2.5degs. Fact is, Mercury has it setup for less than 87 octane so there is a margin for increase in power and efficiency. What about fueling, all of Mercury's earlier motors were setup to run 11:1-12:1 at all rpm and load points. Why? Well safe and conservative, but not always ideal. Mercury racing is the same, the 500hp efi doesn't even have altitude compensation, so, a customer in Tahoe could suffer.

I don't sale exhaust, and in fact, thats to some degree competition to me, but this is what I've seen over my few years.

Thanks

well... then this is easy. if you have done it, post the sheets.
if you haven't done it, then what are the claims based on ?

and the discussion is not about exhausts... if the stocks exhausts are worthless pieces of junk, then yes. you can se that increase just as i did on that pontiac motor but i THOUGHT the discussion was about exhaust gas temp increases and their potential destruction of the motor and the mythical unicorn 50 free hp ecu on a box stock motor.

its not a challenge... its a polite request. if you have taken a box stock 502 mag mpi and done nothing but prgram an ecu for it , i would like to see the uncorrected sheets.

if you want me to pay 5k to see the sheets that support your point, no thanks.

if you have them, then i will be the first to say " great work and send me two."

uncorrected , back to back data , please.

I guess in the end when the discussion turned to exhaust making only 5-10 horsepower I figured we were way off base. I'm sure You as I have way better things to do than devote anymore time to this. Some of the most knowledgeable MEFI tuners in the country have spoken and the consumer can make their decisions based on that info. As for me I'm in it for the customers best interest, we don't sell a single product we don't stand behind. As for the gentleman's bet was just to make the time justified to prove a point worth the energy invested. I figure the guys willing to put their money where their mouth are must be pretty confident in their product and work, everything else is just lip service. I gonna keep my data and my knowledge for the customers that believe in it and for those that don't I hope the reward of the $300 saved is worth every penny.

I figure at this point if customers don't want to heed manufactures warranties who am I stop them. I don't police speed laws so why police customers purchases.

well,
with all due respect to the guys that have spoken, i haven't seen a shred of real data to support anything.

so in the end they are claims made without any objective evidence.

i don't think asking for uncorrected dyno data to support a claim made in support of a sale is unreasonable and , in fact would be the very first thing you would offer to support the merit of your work.

i am a consumer. i have two box stock 502 mag mpi's . show me some hard evidence of meaningful improvement and ill buy the boxes.

seems simple enough.

WOW

I guess the success these three guys have enjoyed through years of hard work and many satisified customers does not count for much in your book?

What have you contributed to the marine industry?

They really have nothing to prove to you. If you are not buying their serices or products they owe you nothing.

There's not a lot of value in me proving a Lightning Mfg claim to you. You have the engine lets Dyno it just think you could win $5000.00 bucks if your right? You haven't seen data because you haven't opened your wallet. You just make doubtful claims. Like I said before I'm not here to prove you wrong for free I want to be compensated to prove you wrong. I said put up $5K grand or you just don't have any confidence in what you claim. Its evident I do I will put my money where my mouth is? I don't want to here some speculation about a sheet of Dyno paper I want you to be there when we Dyno and that way you can right the check on the spot. This is not a kids game this is real business. There's no show for free Lets do it like men lets Dyno a motor.

I can only speak for myself but any one that calls me and says they have a stock merc eng with a mefi 3 and no mods the only thing I can do for them is up the rev limit and on the 500 less black transum.If they have a mefi 1 and will run 93 fuel I can give a little more power in the mid range and a little beter fuel econ.
Who said 50hp on a cal change, I must have missed that one.

ROCK ON !!!!!! now thats puttin your $$$$ where your mouth is :ernaehrung004::ernaehrung004:

thats right. i don't open my wallet to bullsht claims when the people making those claims won't provide any objective evidence that what they say has any merit. my point is and has been what cal man just refered to... that there are no magic free big power numbers hiding in remapping. You make the claim that they do. I 'm saying that that is typical marketing bullsht. for you to make the claims, you should already have the back to back, raw data dyno sheets that demonstrate where your remapping is better than the factory's. there should be no need for new dyno testing. my money was where my mouth was for 25 years doing this work. my engineering degree is from a real university. not the back of a match book cover and my credentials and track record speak for themselves.


remapping is a function of the mechanical requirements of the motor. if the motor was mapped properly at the factory ( my point) then there is perilously little value in remapping.

this thread started with the suggestion that adding headers would REQUIRE a remap to keep the motor alive. That's bullsht.

my first post on this subject stands as written. for the configuration as noted, remapping is a waste of time and money.

Here is my 02 on the headers vs. remap, it really depends on were you live. Here in New Orleans in the spring and the fall we have high baro low ambient air temp and some times low humidity, on that day a 502 mpi with headers will hurt the #6 cly on a long wot pass every time. If you have a mefi1 you might be ok the cals back then were richer and had less aggressive timing maps but if you have a little low octane fuel on that day look out. The mefi ecm is a speed density unit there also is very little to no iat or baro corrections and just warm up fuel on ect. When you change the airflow thru the eng a small amount the speed density does not have enough resolution to tell so it still fuels the same amount at each break point as stock. If you boat at lake Tahoe you should be good to go, the baro multiplier there is still rich on all stock merc cals just run good fuel. If you are in a area that has oxygenated or ethanol blended fuel you are in big trouble with stock cal and headers. I will look later in my dyno files to see if I have a back to back header test on a stock merc eng.

Just my 02 pick it apart all you want,
Mark

Dyno Example
 

Here is an example of a stock 502mpi engine that was then modified with a set of Stainless Marine Exhaust manifolds. We Dyno'ed the engine before and after.

We then made some slight changes to the ECU (MAP, rev limit, spark) and tested again. I have overlayed all three runs together.

I would expect even better gains with a tubular exhaust system.

Can I go do some REAL work now?

Mark

Can I go do some REAL work now?

Mark[/QUOTE]

You do that:eek::evilb::party-smiley-004:

For the sake of letting everyone get back to work. I have only one more question for Steve. Can you? will you? have you? ever tuned a MEFI computer? What exactly gives you ANY credibilty on this subject or to call this subject bull****?(take out the Trans am car install and a engineering degree in something yet specified) While the rest of us that actualy work in this Industry, bulld engines, Exhaust, Superchargers, and actually program MEFI ECU's get back to what we do best. I think Cal MAN's example is such a basic example its proof enough. Its America and your entitled to your own belief as well as the rest of the industry is entitled to theirs. My only plead is that you please be careful when suggesting to consumers to not pay attention to manufactures suggestions if for nothing else just their ability to stay in compliance with a manufactures warranty.

Nice avatar buddy!

Is that thing faster on it's top?:evilb:

Proof enough.....No go back to some real work Mark and quit driving up your post count. :ernaehrung004:



Every time I log on I have to ask myself am I on the right website? Cal Man made another post....LOL Glad to see your posting more, we need some more real world people here....

Bryan

Every time I log on I have to ask myself am I on the right website? Cal Man made another post....LOL

Hi Bryan, some time I log on and get the same feeling.

a good cal. on your ecm from someone who has a good A game will help some. on my old baja 29 outlaw it had twin 454 mag mpi's [1996] I installed EMI exhaust with stainless risers, also replaced the stock merc fuel reg. with one from a different model that ran more fuel pressure. i never remapped the ecm's and never had any trouble with the boat. also had the props labbed all together I picked up about 3 maybe 4 mph with above work. now on my 35 fountain I want to get the ecms remapped cause i run superunleaded and want the rpm limit raised. if you get your ecm remapped get someone thats knows whats up, like Mark B,Tyler, Hardin, or Dustin and you will be good to go

Dear SteveXSM...
 

Dude... (Stevexsm) :angry-smiley-038: You gettin' your head punched in the dirt, and there is no soap or water to clean your azz up! you keep this chit up, and you gonna look like swisscheese with mold. :eek: You are tryin' to match "WISDOM" with the best there is! Shut the freak up. You are startin' to look exactly like an idiot. :eek: These guys, Mark Boos, Dustin and Hardin, they have been there, done that, and if you are lucky, they may feed you with a spoon instead of a knife. They have gotten us where we are today. Can you spell RESPECT? God knows, they may even feed you with a "Sling Shot". <Mark, Dustin and Hardin. My advise, for what it is worth... "Never argue with an IDIOT! ... Bystanders don't know who is who". My .02 worth. And, one thing for sure.. >> My chit is going to Mark, or Dustin. Hardin, just keep sending the parts. LMAO. :ernaehrung004:

say how you really feel redneck:grinser010:

Hey, yall look at my join date. I have read lots of chit, and posted very little. I know a "Johnny come lately" when I see one. And, by the way, "It's a Skater Nation"/.....

www.cathouseperformancemarine.com