internal balance?
 

how do i tell if rotating assembly is internal or external balanced?

Motor is 509 build by mesa balancing, lunati crank.

You can tell that crank has been worked on so I assume internal, but I need to know for sure.
Thanks.

two ways I know of, are to look at the balancer and see if it has a slug on the edge of it... if so than it is external. Same with the flywheel, flip it over and if it has a small slug on the edge, it is external balanced.

Are you running the engine currently or are you in the process of rigging. If you do find that the assm. has been balanced then you should have all your external rotating parts neutrally balanced. Let us know the history and particulars of your project. Look closely at the counter weight area of the crankshaft and also at the end of the rod caps.

I would contact Mesa to be certain. Most hi performance engines that are built by a reputable shop will always balance internally.

www.mesabalancing.com

I bought the motor complete, it had been sitting in his shop for two years and belonged to a friend of his. He could not remember the parts that where in it, but did have the dyno info. I put the motor in my boat and after about 1.5 hours it died and would not restart. Took it home and found the distributor gear, that was supplied with the motor was chewed to pieces. I should have pulled the motor, but it is so hard for me to find a way to lift it that high, I didnt. I flushed the motor with ten or fifteen gallons of kerosene, changed the oil about 5 times,and ran it. Thia was a bad idea. I spun the center three main bearings, They are not bad, but the crank will need polishing at min. The rod bearings look great. The reason I need to know the balance is i have a much nicer flywheel and balancer I would like to put on, but need to know if it will be ok.

The motor is out of the boat, and the crank is out. I am a fairly cometent mechanic, but need some help on the performance stuff.

Any suggestions on how to DIY flush all the bearing material out of the motor would be helpful. I would rather not pull the heads because I do not want to resetup the valve train. I know the best thing would be take it to a qualified marine mechanic, but there are two problems with that, first is if I had to pay someone to work on it I could not afford to keep it, the other is the area I live in if it is not a outboard on a fishing boat they are not anymore qualified to work on it then I am.
Thanks for any helpful hints

No offense man, but cutting corners is what got you to this point to begin with!! Pull the heads, tear it completely down and powerwash the heck out of every orifice and creavace you can find.

You might also have the crank looked over by a machine shop and maybe even mag'd while your at it.... it is not very expensive.

You need to pull every piece of the engine apart. Metal hides every where after you spin a bearing. I have posted pictures on this site of metal sitting on top of the lifter valley. Take it to a good machine shop and have them clean it, dunk it, and clean it again or you will be right back where you started.
Also do not forget to buy a new oil cooler and lines as they can not be cleaned (don't ask how I know that).
Good luck:drink:

Thr crank is going to the machine shop today. I am not cutting corners because I am lazy, I just cant afford to take the entire setup to the machine shop and let them deal with it, so I have do do the lions share myself. The reason I am reluctant to pull the heads is I do not know much about seting upa hyd. roller valve train. I am fine on a flat tappet, but not that familiar with a roller setup.

I planned on seting up a recurculating pump with a filter and naptha to flush the cooler, is this not reasonable, I donot want to buy a new cooler.

most HYDRAULIC roller cams are adjusted the same as a hydraulic flat tappet cam. fyi the advice that you are being given is from experience. if you do not fix this motor the right way you will be doing it again.......................soon.

Pull it all the way down,it will just cost ya a set of head gaskets extra,the bock really needs to be jet cleaned 40.00, the cam bearing 40.00 need to come out ,metal likes hiding there.See if metal went thru the oil pump,oil hoses,if it got up top?lifter orifices,oil cooler all it takes is just one sliver!!

Something caused the dist gear to go out,steel gear?cast cam?

I would think if its mismatched on balancing it would shake the boat at idle,I did it once on a SBF vibrated bad.


your oil flush should work,carb cleaner cuts the oil better than lacquer thinker, acetone,gas etc.

We can walk ya thru on the valve adjustment,its easy.

Rob:drink:

All of these guy's are giving you good information. Tear the engine down completely. Get it flushed and cleaned. If you feel comfortable putting the crank and bearings in then your capable of installing the heads and using a feeler gauge to adjust the valves. No different than a car engine. Get a book. The extra cost now which is minimal, some head gaskets and some shop cleaning work, is much cheaper than doing this all over again because you couldn't get all the metal out.

I'm just curious, if you found a chewed up dist. gear, why did you flush the motor with kerosene? I've heard of flushing one issue with diesel (#2, not #1/kerosene), that had a water intrusion but not for something like that.

Tx,

If it actually "spun" the three center mains, then you need to take the block to your machine shop to have the main bearing bores checked. If there is any discoloration of the main caps at all, it will most definitely need to be align honed at minimum.

I think that even though you are trying to save money, you are actually going to spend more by persueing your course of action. Like everyone else said .... You absolutely have to disassemble the engine, take out all of the oil galley plugs and clean everything.

Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md

i already pulled the engine apart and took the block and crank to the machine shop today.

I do not know why the dist gear failed, the cam is billet, but has a pressed on cast gear. The engine builder said this is not the first time it has happened to him with a MSD gear.

I just decuded to bite the bullet and fix it right, this just sucks as the motor had less then 10hours on it. So far i am at about 4-5 hours wrenching for every hour spent enjoying, this is no exageration.

BTW if anyone has a good engine coupler for a Bravo they want to part with at a resonable cost I am in need.

I need one more piece of advice on this motor. It currently has a set of GM performance heads that are obviously low hours, that were built with the motor. They have Iconel exhaust valves and have been worked, but are only 250cc intke runners.
I have a set of merlin 345cc intake heads that are build similarly, also with low hours, just need one intake valve replaced, guy at machine shop said he would get them ready to go for basically the cost of the valve. Should I put these on the 509? some say I would lose midrange, but on a 540 I had these heads ran awesome, with tons of mid range.

Thanks for the advice

I think the 345's are too big for the 509, unless you've got a huge cam and are spinning it up to 7500-8k.

I agree that they are too big. After numerous combinations, I believe the sweet spot is about 320 cc. The stock Dart IE 308's would be a performance value. Maybe you could find someone who would trade you 308's for 345's in the OSO Swap Shop.

I may have missed the post regarding the fact that you were going to replace the oil cooler. I think bigjim mentioned this and it is good advice. I have been down this road myself and don't want to scare you of all the details but just ad an extra 150.00 - 250.00 to the project and replace it. If you do reuse it be sure and clean it until your sure it's OK and clean it two more times. Also your lines...
Good Luck with everything. I know these tear downs are agrivating and expensive especially when your in the middle of the boating season.

Also be sure to check your end play on your camshaft when your reassembling. You can either get help here, engine rebuild books or even google it.

I have a coupler that has roughly 50-60% left in it that I took off of my motor when I pulled it out. Would let it go for $200 or shoot me an offer. But why would you want to put on another used part? Why not bite the bullet and spend the $ for the new so that you know there are not going to be any problems?

Good point on the oil cooler and lines. Offten a forgotten system to flush. I agree to just toss it oout. You can never get them flushed properly. They gett clogged when they are hot and the fins are expanded. Then they cool and contract on some of the particles. You try to flush them when cold. Then when they get hot again they release the trapped metal. Better to go with new. On another note, how does a coupler get to 50-60% life left? How do you tell? Half broken? You don't need to go new, just get one that isn't coming apart on you and half broken.

The machine shop called and the crank is crqcked beyond repair. I am now considering parting out the entire boat and buying a canoe. This has gone from a $1100 for machine work, bearings, and a few new parts to $3500 for new crank, machine work, balance rotating assembly, bearings a few more new parts. I just dont think this is in me budget every 10 hours. May be in the market for a bayliner, cant stand being without a boat.

That does suck. Maybe performance boats aren't the right type for you? But in all reality, that isnt a bad price.

I don't know why you had problems at only 10 hours?

I feel for you big time. I wish I could some how help out. Keep in mind though that you can find some pretty good deals on a complete 4340 forged rotating assm. for around 1500.00. If you need help finding one if you decide to go this route let me know or at least look at ADPerformance for some options or ideas. Otherwise you could just always find a deal on a 454 and go have fun for the rest of the summer and deal with your rebuild during the off season. You can always resell the 454 or keep it for a spare. Good luck and always keep in mind "worse things can always happen." Be sure and let me know if you have any other questions and or thoughts.
Take care.
John

the spline start to wear is how you can tell the life. Also i have a stock 502 crank that I am taking out of my motor, along with connecting rods and cam.

Just like GETNRDUN said REPLACE the oil cooler and lines. There is no way to get the metal out, no way. I cut one cooler open after spinning a bearing thinking it was clean and metal flakes where still hiding everywhere. I will see if I can bring the picture back, it was posted here a few years ago.

I purchased a used oil cooler from someone (no names) that was not "just like new" that I think caused me to spin a bearing and trash an engine with 10 hours on it.

I even remember on my first boat that I had spun a couple of bearings on and grenaded the top end. After rebuilding the engine right before I was ready to put everything back in place I decided to blow through the oil lines with a compressor. Anybody that has been down this road knows what pops out the other end. (big long metal sludge terd). I know there is a lot of great engine builders out there and I learned from one of them many years ago. CLEAN - CLEAN - CLEAN.

I think the prices of these oil coolers are rediculous however well worth it when they become contaminated. I wonder if anyone has ever just run the air cooled oil coolers in a marine application...

Got a call from the machine shop today, the block is ruined. Now I dont know what to do with it. Maybe just a new short block from ateco or someone is in order, I will replace the cooler at this point, assuming I fix it at all. I may strap a few honda four bangers together and try that.
and thanks everyone for the advice and help.

If I go with a short block it will most likely be a dart block, Will my gen V lifters and cam work if I use a cam button?

I thought money was tight for ya? If you want to do this the right way but cheaper, find a used Gen V or VI block. Then find a used crank, have it turned and/or polished. Get some Eagle rods, maybe some decent TRW forged pistons and be done with it for atleast 2500 less than with a Dart block. You can find the block for under 500, crank for around 400 or so, etc.

A Dart block is not necessary unless you are gonna start making big power. Why spend the money to make 500hp?

No offense, but if you were upset about spending 3500 earlier, then you're gonna flip when you see that a bare Dart block with no machine work (new) is 2300!!

Well I was making 630hp before this happened, and would not mind going up some. may not require a dart block, but it would be nice. Ateco advertises a 540 or 555 short block for $4400 plus shipping, not a whole lot more then the $3500 I was looking at.
My rods from my 509 are still good as well as the pistons and heads, had scat h-beams and srp pistons, may look for gen v block, but all I can find here are 454 blocks for cheap.

Look around, check racingjunk, ask the machine shops in oyur area. A buddy of mine just sold a 502 Gen VI block for cheap.

I was just trying to help.... it's totally up to you. If it were me, I'd find a good block and re-use all my stuff.