Ignition(?) Problem HI-6M and TB-IV Distributor
 

I'm not one to generally ask a lot of questions but OK, here are the setup and symtoms….

Twin carb’d 588s with TB-IV distributors and new Crane HI-6M boxes/coils.
Cruising and blasting around for an hour or so and then we are fast idling at about 1200rpms and the starboard motor just quits. Try to crank it over and it just cranks and cranks.
We begin our journey back on the port motor and about 30 minutes later I decide to try and crank it over. It tries to start and starts popping out the exhaust. Some frineds pull up behind us and tellus they smell raw fuel. Give it up and make our way back.
Cools off over night and it does start and idle but there is no throttle response; just spits and sputters basically like there is nothing there. There is plenty of fuel shooting into the carb and idles in and out of gear so getting on the trailer was fine. (I had no tools or timing lights to check any thing)
Get home and first thought after several discussions is that the sensor in the distributor has gone south which made sense. Changed that and no luck :confused:

I stick a timing light on there at idle… My curve is set up for 24* at idle and 34* full in. I stick the light on there and timing is jumping between 10* and 20*. I look at the light on the Crane box and it is solid red when running; not flashing.

My guess here is that the box has went bad which is not a good thing with the current status of Crane. My friend BobL has suggested that I jump the coil wires and distributor wires to the port ignition to verify this. Good plan!

Has anyone experienced anything like this with the Crane boxes (or other) If so, please share your experience.
If you don’t think it’s the box please share that too…

My background is all mechanical and the electronic stuff gives me fits so please help!!! :o

Thanks,
Dave

da ve

dave,
did you change just the sensor or whole distributor?
john

Just the sensor John...
Not much to the rest of it.
Dave

Assuming you are not the retard function, is the dial/switch set to the #1 position?

I'm going to go for the simple sollutions suggestion...

Check you battery, low voltage WILL cause these problems, but then, you wouldn't be able to crank the engine over would you?? Um, never mind.

Check the shift cut-out switch wired into the white / green distributor trigger wire, if it's crapped out or is shorting, you'll be getting a crappy trigger signal to the dist which will return a solid red LED to the box. Check you rotor and cap, if that little sping button thingy's too worn, it causes havoc.

Check your primary ground, it may have worn or come loose.

Easiest check is to swap the other box across and see if that helps, but I'd check the above stuff first in case you've got a bad wire, you don't want to fry the second box!

Good Luck!

Thanks Ben...
Yes it's set at one. It was running fine when she went down so something gave up the ghost be it a connection or the box.
Dave

John,
We're not using the cut out wiring.
Thanks,
Dave

Nordicflame; Bob, told me today about looking at this.
Did you index the trigger wheels?
What setting are you on for advance?
Try a different timming curve.
I have used plenty of these boxes with no problems. I just not to long ago on the dyno had a distributor sensor give me a problem with the advancing and not having the timing steady, it wasn't as retarded as yours, but that doesn't mean anything. The engine wouldn't pull smoothly, of course, I'am not starting out at the same load. Just swap dist. and check it. Hope this helps. Mark

Could you borrow an locked out MSD or X brand? This might help you pin point the issue. Any racer or speed shop might have something you could test with.

did you figure it out? let us know what u found wrong

Update
 

Update….
Well, DesertRage and I went and did some testing and here’s what we found…

We re-checked the timing in better lighting condition it seemed to be just about where it was suppose to be (within reason anyway)
Kind of hard to read; maybe weak spark.

With the motor running the LED was on kind of solid but so was the good motor. Kind of a combo of off and on at fast impulses I suppose.

Turned the key on the down motor with motor not running and got no LED signal.
Tried the same on the good motor and we had a momentary bright LED signal but it didn’t stay on. (I’ve got a call into the former Crane tech to see if that is normal)
Verified this difference between the two several times.
Red Flag here!

Checked switched 12v; good. Checked main 12v; good.

Tried different curve; same.

Tried different rev limit; same.

The final test… Took number 2 spark plug wire from good motor and used it for a long coil wire from good motor's coil to the down motor’s distributor. Jumped the two distributor wires (wht/red and wht/grn) from the good motor to the down motor. Keyed up the box on the good motor and fired the down motor. How about that; fired off like it never missed a beat.

The conclusion points to a bad Crane box. First Crane box I’ve ever heard of going down and it seems I have it.
I have purchased a used box from a fellow OSO member and will be installing it early next week. Thanks SteveS

The only loop hole I see here is that it could possibly be the coil as we used the other motors coil but that wouldn’t explain no red LED flash when keying on.
These boxes were brand new in November as were the coils. It was when Crane let a few units out to Jegs, Summit and Carshop to name a few. Maybe there was something different with this vintage :hothead:

If the other unit goes down I’m going with DUI distributors!

Comments Welcomed...
Dave

Maybe the company that purchased the Crane ignition components can repair your old box and you will have a spare. Good thinking on your test solution!

I shot him an email with an iquiry about that...
Thanks

When the ignition is turned on the red light on the crane box lights up momentarily and then shuts off. Then the red light blinks when the motor is turning over indicating the box is receiving the signal from the distributor. Sounds like you don't have power to the box. Can you jumper a hot wire onto the power wire for the crane module and make sure you have a ground to the box?? Also, hook up the "bad" box on the good motor and see if it runs the good motor if you think you have power.

Is there a fuse in the power wire to the crane box?? Bad connection?

That makes me feel much better about the light not staying on :drink:

We checked voltage between the in-wire capacitor and the box on the main power wire and we had solid 12v with the key on but still no LED light.

Thanks for the feedback!
I'm open to any other ideas.
(no fuse on main 12v other than the 50amp on the starter)
Dave

Also, the crane box is like a stereo amp. The main power is supplied from a large wire off of the battery or battery switch (right?) switched inside the crane box using 12v from the boat's ignition system.

Check that you have 12v at the thin red wire on the 6 pin weather pack when the key is on. The main power wires are the 10 gage wires that go directly into the box which is not the "switch" wire from the ignition. Somewhere, you should have the thin red wire connected to the purple ignition wire on the boat/motor harness.

I would also take the capacitor out of the loop and try the box without anything in between the power supply and the box. Use a jumper for the main power and a jumper for the thin red switch wire directly from the battery to make sure.


BTW do you have the Crane HI6M manual? I have an electronic copy but it is too big to attach to a post. PM me with an email addresss and I will forward it to you.

Thanks Again Thunder...
We did check the thin red/purple as well as the heavy red with the key on and found 12v. I would assume that there is an internal relay setup in the unit for what you are talking about.
Both units show the same at the thin red and thick red going into the box with the key on. Only difference is the red LED comes on momentarily at key up on the good box and not on the non-functional one and oviously the one that lights up the LED runs perfect and the one that doesn't light will only idle and not very well.

Keep the thoughts coming!!
(yes, I have a manual; Thanks though)
Thanks
Dave

Sure does seem like you are getting close to the bad box conclusion. Great troubleshooting effort.

After rereading I would try swapping coils as the last step before box replacement.

Yes, that is the one unknown and the way I rigged the coils is pretty tidy (in other words, a PIA to get at :picard1:)

That's why I'm putting my faith in the non-functioning red LED flag :flag: on that box. It wouldn't know the coil was bad :cool:

Thanks Again,
Dave

Dave,
Last thought, could you use the long wire trick to test the coil?

I had almost exactly the same thing happen a week ago. I wound iup with a dim red light on the crane box - even when jumpered straight from terminal posts. hooked the tb iv back up and fired right up.

I got an email back from S&S to send them the numbers off the box if I bought within the last year and they would see if eligible for warranty replacement. They made clear that as a courtesy they were honoring crane warranties when possible.

I have not heard of one these going bad until mine crapped out so it was one of the last things i really considered seriously...

Making some interesting progress...
 

Some more interesting findings!

I had already pulled the Crane box last week and took it home. I went up Saturday morning to clean up the mount and install weather proof butt connectors on the wires to get ready for the new box I have coming.
When we cut the wires I wanted to leave what I thought at the time, was a filter on the heavy 12v line going to the box. It's actually a fuse link that is shrink wrapped (why would you shrink wrap a fuse link). When I grabbed the wire to strip it back it slipped right out of the link. I mean it literally slipped out. Turns out that the wire was never in the plastic housing far enough to ever be crimped; just far enough to touch the end of the metal contact which gave us the 12v on the ohm meter. The bare wire was clean, uncrimped virgin strand.
I'm thinking I have found a huge red flag here:flag:
(I'm about 30 miles from where the boat is kept which is why none of this happens fast )
I run home and grab the box and try to test it on the truck battery. Hook up the heavy 12v and ground and the touch the 12v switch wire; No light :picard1:
OK, maybe it needs all the wires hooked up to get the verification light so Sunday morning back to the boat. I just stick the main power wires and then the distributor wires into the butt connectors. No light... Finish sticking the coil wires and tach wire in and holy crapola, a solid red light with the key:evilb: Not a momentary flash but solid.
I call BobL on the way home to chat about my findings and he tells me he had a brand new one last year for customer that had the exact same issue :eek:

I was not in a position to start the motor and I didn't want to crimp my leads until I'm sure this is the direction I'm taking.
Now I'm thinking that the red light is suppose to stay on as the Crane tech and BobL said so i'm going to pull the other link and check it as well. More than likely it's the same way; it can't sustain the full 12v thru the bad connection under load.
I'm thinking that the crimp person/machine was having a bad day which may also explain wtfo's issue as well.

Can someone actually verify if the light actually stays on or just flashes once.

I think I'm close to finding that I have a good box and some poor human mfg process control.

More to come!
Thanks,
Dave

Great news! As you re-rig, consider using the Weatherpack connections on all your connections. The correct crimping tool is a little pricey, but you it is a good investment in reliability. If you have the MSD crimping tool, they offer separate jaws for Weatherpack connector crimping. All the parts are available at Jegs/Summit. Summit also sells a Weatherpack starter kit.

I hope it's great news. I just need someone with a perfectly functioning unit to go turn their key on!!! :drink:

That would make sense on the wire connection, it wouldn't be able to carry the amp. load of the box. All the boxes come that way, I have never seen that before, since the shrink wrap was still inplace it had to be the wire crimp connection. I tried to find out from Crane who mfg the boxes.

mine stays red when the key is on solid red

Thanks!!

I just checked mine last night and it lights up bright red and then goes off. One blink.

If you get the instruction manual it outlines exactly what the LED is supposed to do and when. There are test procedures that will tell you by means of the LED (off, on, flashing etc.) which component if any has failed.

Yes, in a perfect world that would be nice :drink:

The instructions infers that the light stays on when the key is on. Now we have Thunderstrucks two with a quick flash, DesertRage with a quick flash and now my two with a quick flash and all functioning well… :cool:

Seemes to me that it’s about 50/50 on this deal and I’m beginnig to wonder if it’s the position of the reluctor wheel when keyed.

Anyway, the manual does not hold the answer here :confused:

Conclusion to the saga (pre-water test)
 

Conclusion to the saga (pre-water test)

Well I reinstalled the unit thought to be bad. This is also the one with the uncrimped fuse link. I reinstalled it because when I mocked in into the boat I received a solid red key on light when and only when the coil wires were attached. (If you remember I tried it on the truck battery and got no light at all. Crane says it doesn’t need the coil and distributor wires hooked up to get the red light to function)
I felt good enough about this to crimp the wires and try it out. Well, after crimping the wires I got no light at all :poopoo:
Completely dead. Strong 12v going in and strong 12v on the switch wire going in when keyed.
She’s Dead :(

OK, time to install the new/used unit. I cut all the new connections and re-wired the new to me box in with new weather proof connectors. Turn the key on and get a red flash. Turn the other key on and get a red flash. Were on to something here :drink:

Pulled the boat out of the shed and hooked up the hose and she fired up with perfection :evilb:
Fired the other one up and perfect as well.
It was nice to hear them both happy. I am fully confident that the case is now solved.

My conclusion is this… The crimp was absolutely faulty from the factory; Not one hint of doubt here:cool-smiley-011: Once this contact was compromised (shorted) the resistance fluctuations between the batteries and the box caused internal failure to the main power circuit in the box. So my confidence in these boxes (these were the 5th and 6th I’ve installed) remains very high. They just can’t be subjected to poor power delivery abuse.

Is the light suppose to stay on when keyed as Crane tech and instructions say? No; Proven 5 times on this thread not to be so. Must be the position of the reluctor or something because apparently there are some that do indeed stay on. A mystery :snide:

I’ll let you know how the water test goes

Thanks for all the input on this!

Dave

Great job. Sure was painful though!

Restricting the current to a DC device can make the current go high to keep drawing the same amount of power which causes heat with increased temps. Essentially, the bad crimp was just like putting a resistor in the power wire. Maybe the bad crimp raised the current which overheated the components in the box and toasted it.

Water test complete. All is well and back to normal :evilb:
Thanks Again!

Thanks for the link Dave.
I'll try mine out and let you'all know what I find.

Gordo

good to hear I lost one this weekend, one motor just blinks one time when you hit the key, the other has 12plus volts going in but will not fire im sure the box is gone.

Crane doesn't make the box anymore but you can get a new improved version from Daytona Sensors. I've read on here that they were the company that made/ developed them them for Crane.