BBC oil pump ?
 

what oil pump should i use on my rebuilt 509 with 2.3 whipple side mount? thx

I like Melling 10778 or 10778c pumps. Although some guys here dont like the "C" pumps, I have used them on 3 engines recently with great results. There have been claims of the "C" pumps causing pressure fluctuations at idle speeds, but the 3 engines I did, didnt experience that problem.

which one moroso or melling? then which model? lol thanks

Vinney P and I both concurr!

Raylar uses the Melling 10778c on our BBC engines exclusivly and we have nothing but excellent results.

These pumps are the best because they have bearing support at the top and the bottom of the oil pump gears, which stops gear seperation at high loads which is why you see uneven wear and gouging on the old style pumps in the cover.
We do throw away the extra spring in the box, don't use it its not right or even close and we do weld the pickup tubes in place carefully (not to much heat) with the cover off and then re-install the cover and torque cover bolts and check pump feel under rotation again.

These pumps are reasonably priced and they represent the best value in BBC oil pumps today!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

cool i will go with that pump then, i have a aftermarket pan with a bolt on pick up so i dont think there is any reason to weld it on. right?

i am going to plug the bypass in the filter mount also with a 20mm freeze plug, or should i put a 30pound spring instead?

Plug it or tap the hole and install a 1/2" pipe plug. I tap and install the plug.

Also, I use a M77HV pump. It is the only pump I have ever used for over 20 years and have not had any troubles with them.
Eddie

Eddie, 1:35 AM??? Do you ever sleep? It never ceases to amaze me that you are so willing to spend your limited time sharing your expertise on this site.......

I had a after market bolt on style pickup, it was not welded on and cost me a motor. The bolt worked out, pickup fell off, and BOOM, two rods through the side of a $12k motor. now I weld it on no matter what.

:lolhit:
I sleep a few minutes hear and there. I work late every night. It seems to be the only time I can get anything accomplished. I love what I do and I enjoy helping people out. I know what it's like to not be able to pay someone to fix your stuff. That's how I learned a lot of what I know. I used to ask a ton of questions and had the benefit of people helping me out, so I have no problem helping guys out and returning the favor.
I obviously do get some work from this and other sites, but it's not why I help. The vast majority of help I give will never make any money for me. That is not why I do it. Like this thread......I won't get any business from this. And that's just fine. Like I said.......it's for the love of the sport. I'm really glad that I can help someone out. There are definitely some lessons that I learned the hard way. If I can prevent someone from doing the same thing and maybe save their engine then I will do what I can to help. I'm just glad that my assisstance actually helps people out. That is all that I need in return.
Oh, and thanks for the kind words.
Eddie

Oops. I forgot the pic. Here is a pic with the pipe plug installed in place of the bypass valve.
Eddie

Ray,

Have you heard of the claims of pressure fluctuations @ idle speeds? As I said, the engines I recently did, have had no such effects. I too, use the high pressure spring that comes in the pump from the factory.

Vinney P
No we have never expierenced pressure fluctuations at idle on the 496's and 502's we build and work on and thats even on the Diacom diagnostic electronic readouts so I suspect anyone having those type of fluctuations either has possibly some debris or sticking maybe in the pressure relief valve on the pump or a feed problem in the oil system or something like that. I don't think these pumps fluctuate much especially at idle unless something else is wrong.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Ray,

Thanks for your input and expertise. :drink:

vinny or raylar have you noticed low oil pressure with the 10778c pump at idle?

No, not on the 3 engines I have used this pump on. We ran them all last season with no pressure issues at all.

whats your pressure at idle? sorry for all the questions .......................... also in the pic above (the center hole) was the threaded pipe just unscrewed?

My idle pressure depended on oil temps. When the temp was up, the pressure was at about 30 psi @ 700 rpm. I never saw it drop below that.

What promted your questions??
 

Conquest30'

Remember, cylinder block valves or bypasses do not drop the oil pressure on a properly assembled engine, they just bypass either the remote oil filter or cooler assemblies.
If you have a BBC engine that has a good oil pump, proper clearances in bearings and rod side clearances and you are using a good pump with lets say 10-40W to 20-50W oils, you should see about 50-60psi cold and lets say 30-60 psi hot between idle and 5500rpms if your pump has the correct pressure relief spring in the pump and everything is ok internal to the engine.
If you are seeing pressures below this cold and warm you most likely have to big of clearances, bad bearings, oil pump or such. If there are problems internal to your engine you are not going to raise oil pressure by fooling with by-passes and such.
Whats the story on your engine? Who built it? And what and why are you having oil pressure problem? or oil pump concerns?
We need more info to help with your questions.

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Ray , I've used Melling HV pumps on all big blocks in the past in all Ford or Chevy engines. Consistent pressures with small drop at high temps., rock solid when cold at idle.
Can't say the same for my bone stock 377 sbc since day one ,and I have only around 200 hrs on both engines. SmartCraft and analogue backup gauges both read around 40-42 pressure at 600 rpm when cold , and drops as low as 27-28 when the oil is hot .Should have an oil cooler on these . I've been using the Merc 25-40 blend from day one , and wonder if it would be better to switch for 20-50 .Which oil would you recommend for this 6.2 MX [377] engine? Thanks
Ps; the stock oil pan is quite small and I wonder if the oil splashes up the cylinder walls running hard in rough water ,causing the oil getting too hot .

I have a M77HV in my starboard engine and a 10778c in my port engine. I forget which one does it, but at idle one engine bounces between 30-50lbs every once in a while. normally runs 80lbs cold and 50 hot. I think it is my port engine.

All else being equal i.e. same bearings, oil lines etc, does switching to a HV pump raise oil pressure?

Yes about 6 to 10 psi. But you do not want anything over 65 - 70 psi cold idle.

I run the melling HV that was purchased then sent to another shop to be blueprinted. works very well but does fluctuate at hot idle. just my 2 cents.

What's the issue above 65-70 psi cold idle??

I rebuilt 500HPs several years ago and have had 45-50 psi hot WOT and 20 psi hot idle ever since. Don't remember the cold idle pressure.

Both engines out of the boat now and the bearings/leakdowns look good so I was going to add a HV oil pump to boost the pressure a little. Looks like the lower oil pressure is due to clearances from the rebuild so a HV pump could make better pressure?

Does the pressure fluctuate with rpm at idle i.e. blower surge or cam lope???

Why is that? Every engine that I build has more than that at a cold idle.

Not so much with cam lope, but pressure will move around with any pump if the rpms are surging up and down do to a blower, etc.

Cold High Pressure
 

Eddie, We found on alot of our Road Race engines that run heavier weight oil, that the higher pressure with "cold" oil was showing signs of bearing erosion happening. (Sort of like trying to push clay through a pop bottle). We alway blue print the pump and adjust the spring to maintain the idle pressure at about 60 psi based on the oil that is going to be used in the engine. Most of the bearing erosion will happen from high oil pressure at start up's. Cold oil as we know does no good to the engine either, then to run high pressure on top of that?? A engine really only needs about 5 psi per 1000 rpm (even though most people use the 10 per 1000 rule of thumb). Just for what it is worth. Pete

Got a couple of the M77HV's for my winter project. What intermediate shaft should I order?? The box has a note that says you should run a "pinned" intermediate shaft, do you have a part number??

See the difference!
 

Guys, just as a heads up on these oil pump questions.
Here's a quick suggestion for those not sure which pump is better to use.
Buy or get a hold of a Melling MV77HV and a Melling 10778C. Take them apart and compare. You will quickly see visually first glance which is a better pump! and a better drive shaft setup, as well as oil pump pressure relief spring and adjustment. Just a quick suggestion.
If you can't see or understand the differences, you should not be fooling with engines and internals especialy oil pumps!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Pretty much any name brand aftermarket drive rod will be pinned. I use and ARP #135-7901. The stock ones are just turned down at the end and have a plastic sleeve covering the connection point. The good ones have a pin the engages in the pump and a steel sleeve covering it up. They are much, much stronger. The ARP is about $15.
Eddie

For those of us who don't have quick access to the two pumps mentioned, can you be more specific or possibly post a picture of what you are talking about?

Thanks Eddie.

With the ARP 135-7901 the sleeve is welded onto the shaft, correct?? No separate sleeve required?

Oil Pump 101
 

I don't really have a lot of time right now to hold oil pump class 101, but i will just say that the Melling select series pumps, especially the 10778C unit solves many issues with the older HV series pumps, heres' a little info:
1. One of the big problems with the older pumps is that the shafts for both gears in the pump are unsupported on the cover end. What does this mean? When an oil pump is pumping hard at higher rpms especially with the higher viscosity oils that marine engines generaly use the two gears that actually mesh and pump the oil tend to be pushed away from each other under high loads. This in turn causes the gear faces to slowly get a top to bottom rounding and wear unevenly.
The gear spread then causes the top of the gears at the cover plate end to start digging into the carefully machined cover plate unevenly. If you've taken oil pumps apart over the years after use you see these conditions and the subsequent pressure losses and of course some more metal in the oil.
It's this unsupported at both ends shaft problem that is cured by Mellings new design, where the shafts now have extensions that go into carefully machined recesses in the top cover to support the shaft and gears at BOTH ENDS!
Whola! end of gear seperation and wear problems!
2. the 10778 also uses a hex drive oil pump drive shaft coupling between the intermediate shaft and the distributor drive. This in turn eliminates the old shaft wobble, misalignment and the many times breakage issues between the shafts and subsequent engine catastrophie!
3. the oil pump pressure relief on the 10778C has the spring ( by the way, throw the extra in the box away and do not use it, the standard one is just right!) held by a nice adjustable threaded plug so no more fooling around with rolled pins and washers to open and inspect plunger for burrs or such!

In all these items in Raylar's opinion make the Melling 10778C oil pump a far superior product to the older pump series and it requires no real modifications or fooling with to make a great pressure producing, long life oil pump system in any BBC wet sump system!

If you can inspect these two pumps you will see what I am explaining here and its easy to see the differences.

Hell I did it anyway!
Class Dismissed!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

running at the mouth:drink:
Ray ,Eddie and others,Ive been told by a few of the big engine builders, like you, tell me that the BBC does not have a oiling Issue,but like most of us we are anal and it cant hurt doing all the tricks,oil drain back,I still believe in the 10778,after talking to 2 different engineers making sure I dont get to different answer's, the construction of the 10778 (the new series) is improved over the old hv series, The old style had powder casted parts in it, the new style has the steel parts,I was also told that all the HP pumps are tested,they are set at 75psi,also a 75psi spring..

Remember most boats have electric gages with vido senders.big variances.if ya run a mechanical gage/hose the length can cause a diff reading,if ya want to go off that end.

I did a lot of research ,I found that rod /main bearing clearance make a diff in pressure,My Hustler had Meling KE oil pumps and picks ups.bearing clearance was around .0025 .one was off ,changed the sender it changed, Ive never seen a fluctuation in pressure,if you see a jump its prob in the sender or spring valve chatter?

I tear down my motor down every winter,really for repolishing, there is no signs of a oil issue,the bearings look reusable,tight in the saddle and your usual shinnynest and little trash,I'm pushing my bottom end pretty heavy,850hp stock crank.

now ya have the billet pumps,300+.then do you really have a oil pan with kick out that would benefit that extra oil con toll

I thing the bottom end set up makes the most diff.these guys that do it every day see the stuff and I bet that most oil problems are bad Assembly.

Remember I'm just some Mississippi redneck Furniture boy:drink:

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...uild-up-2.html


and I need beer money and some money for Whipple stickers,,http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/s...ght-money.html

Heloo oil pump guru's! I have an oil pump (the good one as described above) that appears to drag slightly when rotating by hand (using a shaft made for spinning it). When I put it on the first time I swear it would rotate smooth. Removed pan, took pump back to bench for a close look. Everything looked fine and it felt smooth rotating it. I went and did some simple blueprinting to be certain it was ok. Put it back in and it was still smooth. Put oil in and the drag is back! wtf? I would say about 25% of the rotation has a slight drag when it's pumping oil. I hooked my drill to the tool and looked for surging oil pressure but it seems to be working perfectly. Anyone hear of such a thing? Engine #1 didn't do this.

Someone asked about drive shafts. For what it is worth my builder specified he wanted the Milodon shafts, so consider them in the absence of any other advice.