Surface Drives
 

Why didn' t the surface drive ever really make it for production boats? I was reading an old article from the 80's and it was saying how it was superior it was to the I/O in simplicity, weight, installation, drag, ect. I've always loved the roost a surface drive kicks but I'm curious why this drive really never caught on?

for most applications the surface drive would not work, you needed the prop down in the water and tucked under to get the boat on plane.

You obviously have not had the experience of owning or being in a boat that has an Arneson. They work great, and when set up properly, work even better.
The reason why it did not work out is cause of.....Mercury's Monopoly... their ability to manipulate the market place.

Thats what I thought, which is too bad. It just seems like such a superior design to the sterndrive. I wish they were a bit cheaper or easier to find used. I'd love an arneson on my Formula!

I used to have a 21 Eliminator center counsole bow rider with a Kaama drive. It was a fun boat. If I hadn't worked for Kaama, I would never been able to afford it. You not only have the cost of the drive assembly, but also a transmission, external steering, and a workable prop.
A Bravo would have been a heck of allot cheaper, and only a couple of MPH slower.

Heres a cool vid on Arnesons Bravo conversion on a Formula

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxjsIl3F3x8

Fixx
 

i wouldn't say its a flop,,do a search on marine surface drives,they are popular on the bigger sport cruisers..

this one here caught my eye a few years ago,cool concept.

http://www.weismann.net/Press%20Page...annDuoProp.htm

Surface drives are not prone to breaking as often as the black stuff, especially when you put any kind of power in front of them.Not to say the black stuff is not any good but my personal opinion is they are built to break. The first time I say an XR drive torn down I was shocked to see how thin the castings between the between the bearings and the outer parts of the drive. No wonder bearings spin in the housings and take everything out. A lot of $$$$$ is made buy selling parts and labor fpr repairing these things. Even the #6 which is a great drive, man its cost a lot of dough to have them gone through thoroughly and thats not even if they are broken. I am only speaking about Kaamas they are pretty simple and no special tools required the repair them.Parts are all available,if you look for them. Bearings, seals at any bearing supplier shafts are still available by the original manufacturer that built them in the 80,s. Housings are getting hard to find but are still out there. Boot are really to find. Arnesons Im sure are better yet. Just my 2 cents worth.

Simpler is better! I really don't understand why the indusry didn't go more with the surface dirve. Or at least more consumer demand. It kind of reminds me of the tucker automobile! Far superior but not allowed to compete!

Power boat magazine did an article on Arneson's a few years back, some good reading. I have seen several "balls out" turbine boats that run surface drives. I think they work really well behind boats with HUGE power.

Like I mentioned above...they are great drives..set up is a little more, reliability is much better...Hustler is the largest boat manufacture of Go-Fast that uses them and I believe Nortech is second..which uses them on 15+ diesel applications per year. The myth of no reversing and tough to spin your boat around at the docks is not the truth..when set up properly I will take these any day of the week over the Merc stuff.

i see a set of kaamas in classifid for sale do thay have drop boxes or are the drives in line with the crank i had thought about them convert an older datona with twins

I'm not saying that they are bad,90% of all boats sold are 18 to 25' runabouts and family boats, not your go fast boats that can use a surface drive. I don't think they would have worked out on a 22' bayliner. those of us who like to go fast make up a small percentage of the boating industry.

Not true! That's my point, they seem superior in every application. Here is a great article from 1980, the test boat had a 270 hp engine. As far as cost they're on par with an XR set up but stronger. If I was ordering a new boat I would instist it came with an Arneson. Here is the article

http://www.howardarneson.com/articles/article7r.asp

Fixx
 

Here's a 18' donzi with a serface drive..you need to check this one out.

http://www.donzi.net/forums/showthread.php?t=61317

Now that is really cool! Maybe next year I'll seriously think about a used arneson. That would open up a lot of possibliitys with my engine. I could spin that thing to 7 grand and not worry at all about the drive. Not to mention they just look cool hauling butt across the lake!

Fixx
 

Keep in mind that boat took alot of r&d work to work properly on that hull,when it was all said and done that boat went 125mph +...i dont know what the top speed was but it was quick and fast..under the 6th pic theirs some video's of it running..

I fail to see your correlation here. Please help me connect the dots.

First you say “for most applications the surface drive would not work, you needed the prop down in the water and tucked under to get the boat on plane” then you comment on the volume of boat sales to performance enthusiast.

The size of the boat has little to do with the use of an Arneson as the real argument you should have made is that the smaller boats are a budget boat and the price constraints do not allow for the cost of an Arneson in comparison to the less expensive package that they are currently getting from Mercury.

As for getting on plane due to the need to be tucked under I do not know what to say. Being a surface drive, none of them including Mercury’s can be trimmed under and last I looked they all get on plane.

But maybe I just don’t understand the dots?

are you saying your elevator does not go to the top floor..:drink:

what dots? take surface drives out of the picture. the comment was directed to your standard family boat, with a merc, volvo, omc. what ever, has to have the drive trimed all the way down to get on plane, which is about a 7 deg. past neutral (tucked under), its the way they are designed. I seen the artical from the 80's and it sounds great, but 30 years later it is still only used in limited installations, why? there has got to be more to it than merc monopoly. sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

30 years ago no one knew of a prop that could even get a boat on plane with a higher x. I bet the misconception of bad handling with a surface drive would be merc's attempt at it with their blackhawk drive.... those turn a performance boat into a bumper boat :lolhit: Arnesons are not for the weak obviously budget and performance go hand in hand

Dots meaning you are jumping around with your argument. A more precise narrowed argument would be far easier for the readers to follow.

Example, your second sentence states “take surface drives out of the picture” this is a ‘Surface Drive” thread.

As for monopoly, do you realize that Mercury and Volvo and even OMC owned their own boat companies in order to ensure their product would have a home?

Mercury even offered (much to their demise) financing options to ensure they got and held a foot in the door. Mercury, Volvo and OMC were also smart enough to offer an engine package whereby the builders make one phone call and it all arrives together in one shipment, one point of contact etc.. Ilmor is now having to do the same in order to compete in the smaller boat markets.

Trimming down 7 degrees does not have a bearing on anything. The Arneson does the same so that is a mute point. Feathers are far from ruffled; I just think you might need more first hand knowledge in order to make a more complete statement that would be easier to follow and comprehend.

Can you imagine how much money merc would lose if they had arneson drives? Even their strongest #6 dry sumps have a limited life span. Then when the time comes to rebuild them, you better have a big checkbook.

Every boat i have inquired about, mostly older cats and vees, with asd drives, have run big power thru them for many years trouble free.

It doesnt take a rocket scientist to base a opinion on these. If you do your research, and talk to people who actually own and run these drives, you will find out they are a winner. Look at what you got. A somewhat simple design, big shafts, bearings, not much to break! Then look at a merc drive parts diagram. Nothin but shims, small gears, shafts, bearings, collars, clutch cones, spacers, weak housings, etc.

They are more reliable, faster, and cheaper to own in a long run, considering you have decent power.

KVOGT on the board here, has a old 38 flatdeck cig with old 1600 series asd's. Before the asd's, he busted 5 trs drives in one season if i remember right. Big heavy boat, runs in big water. Rerigged with asd's, drive failures are a thing of the past. Not to mention the boat picked up i believe at LEAST 10mph if not more.

Some of the guys relate bad experiances planing, bow carrying ability, and issues with high drive heights when they bolt a shorty lower on a bravo, and write off the idea of the prop being close to the surface as a bad idea. Theres a reason for ext boxes for this, and long shafts on a asd.

If anyone remembers the old 32 hustlers in the early 80's with asd surface drives, there was nothing that could touch it speed wise. With 600's they ran 100mph. even with 330's they ran mid 70's. And handled great. Try to get a mid 80's 32 to 100mph with bravos, trs, and see how much power its gonna take and what a wild ride its gonna be.

Wow, this is argumentation at its best. Forget the rhetoric :)

Proposition - Need/problem - Reiteration - References

Absolutely true, the market is too small. Mercs bread and butter is the low end, not high.

this is a go no where conversation, the question was (why don't you see more surface drives,) I posted my opinion, I have not had the opertunity to be around surface drives, my post was based on what I've seen and heard about them, 25 year in the boating industry and not 1 arneson come through my door. I'm being told how great they are, where are they? you say it's because of engine packaging, why does'nt arneson offer a package, after 30+ years I would have expected something to get there drives out there. if there so much simpler than a bravo, with less moving parts why do they cost so much? These are questions I think a lot of us whould like to know.

I used to work in the ski industry as a sales rep. The fact that merc can offer a package and then give big terms in financing is very valid. I was up against the same thing until I went to work for the big boys. My orders were 5-10x bigger because of the terms, discounts and package deals. I agree though seeing that Arnesons are much simpler their price "should" be much less. You can either make a lot off of one item or a little over many. I like volume myself. Personally if I was running Arneson I would drop my price for a while and flood the market with drives. This would wake everyone up to how great they are and consumer demand would follow. After 30 years with little to no maket share the current price stratagy, in my book isn't working. Come on Arneson, how about an affordable package that will compete against a std alpha/bravo package. Lets get some of your drives on more boats. I'd love to see one hanging off the back of mine!

from the peanut gallery...
 

I'm by no means an expert, but from what I have read surface drive applications do require more attention and tweaking with respect to set-up. This is likely due to the fact that most are 'conversions' from a Bravo type drive. The type of hull (stepped, notched, weight, location of CG) all play a part. Prop design/selection is also key to getting things dialed-in. Just my 2 cents...

I think if performance boat manufacturers started offering surface drives as a standard option and actually designed around the surface drive working through all these set-up idiosyncrasies, it would out-perform a Bravo boat at every level.

Rik, have you ever been involved with a conversion of a 292 Fastech (stepped deep V with twin small blocks) or similar?:drink:

I think the initial cost was and is a factor. I will say that i LOVE my drives. Are they rare.......yep..........Is it hard sometimes to get on plane?............sometimes once you get used to it it is a snap!.................Hard to dock?..............Not when you get used to it!.............Faster?...........YUP!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take a old school, straight bottom,8000 LBS rig with 400 HP (dynod with car headers) and run 67.9 GPS!!!!

A Surface Drive will work GREAT with big and small power. After my re..........re.......build. my boat has run faster with not much more power.

Set up is a big deal BOATMAN302 can tell you that as FACT. Hell i gained 13MPH GPS from a prop change :eek:and i think there is more in it yet:drink:

Engine package? While we do not currently build motors we do have an engine package with Sterling Performance Engines in MI. We offer a 600 - 700 - 800 - 900 - 1,000 hp and upwards engine package with a drive unit.

Cost, please compare what the cost of a Bravo is or a Bravo copy is and then you will see we are cheaper. Cheaper? Yes! Add in all the things you will have to purchase to put the I/O on the boat comparably, such as Steering, Standoff Box, Helm Unit, the Drive Assembly (not a piece of a drive, the entire gimbal transom assembly, bellhousing, drive plate, etc... ) we are cheaper. So how cheap do we have to be? We also have a WARRANTY on our drive units. Others?

compairing apples to apples, your saying your drive sys. is cheaper than the bravo sys. what would it cost to convert a bravo to a arneson? From the bellhousing to the prop?
this information would give a lot of us something to think about.

Excerpted from a publically posted 2004 market research paper
Mercury Marine, a Brunswick Company, produces MerCruiser stern drives in Stillwater, Oklahoma.
Brunswick has dominated the market with a 70 plus percent share of the U.S. market in recent years.
The U.S. consumes the most of the stern drives produced in the world. Most other developed
countries use diesel inboards (shaft drives) in larger recreational boats because gas is much more
expensive in other parts of the world. Less developed countries have few recreational power boats of
any type. Brunswick especially "owns" the U.S. high performance recreational stern drive market.
They also dominate the racing market.
Their Stillwater location marinizes General Motors automotive engines (modifies them for running in
boats and in marine environments). On-site aluminum die cast operations produce stern drive
housings and related components. Marinization of diesel engines for use on inboards and stern drives
also occurs in Stillwater. Marinization, combined with die casting, machining, painting, assembly,
testing, packaging and many other operations result in boxed engines and stern drives ready for
shipment. Racing stern drives are built in Wisconsin.
Brunswick’s vertical integration and marketing practices separate them from the competition.
Depending on which side you are talking to, somewhere between a little and a lot of Brunswick’s
domination is due to the captive market they established by purchasing Bayliner, Sea Ray, and about a
dozen other boat companies. Their strong dealership network is also a plus. Recently, they took it one
step further by purchasing some major marine parts houses. Brunswick’s pricing practices have also
helped them dominate the market. They encourage builders to purchase higher volumes and more
product lines from Brunswick to receive the largest discounts possible. Stern drives represent a large
percentage of the total cost of building a stern drive boat. In order to be price competitive with boats
from other builders receiving the maximum discount, many independent (non-captive) builders
purchase a large percentage (or all) of their outboards and stern drives from Brunswick to get the
highest discounts. Some independents do not like dealing with Brunswick because they have to
compete with Brunswick owned boat companies in the marketplace.
Brunswick’s annual corporate reports have been of no value in estimating stern drive volumes. They
are a huge company and lumps any stern drive data into the discussion of their entire marine segment.
The most they ever say is that stern drives are up or down "x" percent in volume or dollars, but they
never provide a base line.
Several statistical sources for MerCruiser stern drive production volume and market share are
provided on the following pages

I understand what you are saying, for the smaller manufacture it is difficult to get any product out there in any volume, which is to bad, there is a lot of good stuff out there, like the arneson and other drive sys. It's like the mom & pop store on the corner vs walmart.

LAKE FOREST, Ill., Brunswick announced today that it has been served with a lawsuit filed recently in Federal District Court in Virginia claiming Brunswick violated various provisions of the antitrust laws in connection with its sales of MerCruiser sterndrive and inboard engines. The suit was filed by Volvo Penta of the Americas, Inc., seeking damages in an unspecified amount and injunctive relief. Brunswick said it believes the suit is without merit and will aggressively defend itself against it.
The complaint invokes the allegations contained in a suit brought in Little Rock, Ark., where, as previously reported, a jury awarded a group of 22 boat builders treble damages totaling $133 million in June 1998. The company is in the process of appealing this verdict. While there can be no assurances, the company believes the jury verdict will ultimately be reversed.




BRUNSWICK HIT WITH 3RD ANTITRUST SUIT
Chicago Tribune
6 Jan 199
by Sallie L. Gaines
Brunswick Corp., already enmeshed in two antitrust lawsuits, said Tuesday it has been hit with a third one, accusing the Lake Forest-based company of unfairly monopolizing the marine engine market.
The latest suit was filed in federal court in Virginia by Volvo Penta of the Americas Inc. Volvo, based in Chesapeake, Va., manufactures stern drives for boats. The suit calls for unspecified damages, Brunswick said.

Brunswick said the suit is without merit, but noted that it includes essentially the same charges as a suit the company lost last year in federal court in Little Rock, Ark.

In that case, brought by Independent Boat Builders Inc., a jury decided Brunswick was guilty of restraint of trade and levied a fine of $44.4 million. Because fines in antitrust cases are tripled, the levy against Brunswick totaled $133 million.

Brunswick is appealing the verdict.

That verdict prompted another antitrust case, filed in October in federal court in Minnesota by two boat builders.

The issue in all three cases is Brunswick's dominance in the marine-engine industry through its Mercury Marine subsidiary, based in Fond du Lac, Wis.

Brunswick also is a major manufacturer of powerboats through its acquisition of popular brands including Sea Ray, Maxum, Baja, Trophy and Boston Whaler.

Boat builders have argued that Brunswick's acquisitions have unfairly lessened competition.

They also have argued that Brunswick gives its own boat-building units better deals on engines than outside manufacturers. Builders also say Brunswick requires them to commit to buy unrealistically high numbers of engines to get the best prices.

Figure around 20K+ for the conversion (lists 23K)... only other thing you'd need is a transom water pickup, I think.
I would absolutly love to convert my 21 to an Arnesen (used have a blackhawk on it) I need to start saving my $s up:drink:
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/a...2&d=1260831015

I have a lot of Arneson parts if anyone needs anything. Almost enough to put 4 ADS-8's together.

Like has been said before, go-fast market is a small piece of the pie,
surface drives do have a decent market in the big sport cruisers,
typical family runabouts that are the bread and butter are never gonna be a market for surface drives,
1. They would scare most average Joes
2. No one is gonna spend the time to set them up correctly
3. You will have a razor sharp cuisinart right where little jimmy is swimming behind the boat .

Look at the bread and butter of the production boat market and youll find half are still using the Alpha drive,not even the Bravo.
Want to compare cost there? :)