EPA approves 15% Ethanol
 

Does anyone have comments to share on what, if any, the potential problems or long term damage that could happen to our marine engines with the now approved 15% ethanol blend in gasoline?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/104917099.html


David

where ever i go i just use 91 or up, there isn't ethanol in premiums.

i love stuff like E85 for cars and hot rods, it's cool stuff. BUT to mandate ethanol in all 87-89 fuels sucks ass!

I'm not sure where you buy gas, but its federally mandated that ALL gasoline is 10% ethanol. That includes your 91 and up, as far as I know.

Now making it 15%, plan on having extra money sitting around for repairs, especially on boats and 2 cycle equipment! Ethanol in gasoline will attract moisture and separate from the gas therefore causing a lean burn, and possibly detonation to pistons. In 2cycle applications, its gonna be a nightmare. The extra alcohol in the gas, can strip cylinder walls of protective oil film also causing a lean ratio, which will lead to excessive wear. Make sure to use a high quality synthetic oil in your 2cycles, because the synthetic will adhere to the cylinder walls much better and also creates a much high film strength, therefore protecting better against the ethanol.

Our newpaper said Obamma aproved it:rolleyes:


I wonder is AV gas still has lead?

I also live in a county where the 10% blend is not mandated. The gas stations however are becoming less and less that offer the non blended even in premium. I am finding myself out of convenience filling the boats gas tank with the 10% blend more and more as result. I am wondering if anyone has experienced failures that have been a direct result of using ethanol blended fuel?

As the 15% rolls out I suspect the tanks at the gas stations will now be filled with 10% and the 15% and squeezing out the non blended all together.

Are people using some type of additive in their fuel where ethanol blend is all that is available?

David

I had issues all summer becaue of ethenol in my Donzi. Every trip out I had to change my fuel filter and clean out the one at the carb. The ethenol loosed up the shalac (sp) from the sides of the tank and it just kept clogging up the tank. There were a number of times I barely made it back to the dock because of it.

I find that if you are going to burn the fuel in a few weeks you are ok. If you are going to burn it over many months then you should add something like the blue startron or equivelant.

http://www.starbrite.com/sproductdetail.cfm?ID=1537
I have used this last year at every fill up in my old wellcraft excalibur not knowing what the inside of my fuel tank looked like. It ran 100% all year and never had issues with fuel. I have since pulled the sending unit from the tank to suck out all the fuel from it since it has been sitting this past season since I was building a motor. All the fuel pumped out of the tank I ran in my daily driver and it ran good. The inside of my tank is spotless! Ready for fresh fuel next year! :coolcowboy:

I've been running Startron or Marine Stabil everytime I fill up, Had the boat since before blended fuels, don't know if the fuel additives helped, but I've had zero fuel related problems.
I richened up the jetting 2% when the 10% blend came out to make up for the change in fuel density....may have to bump the jets another size.

A complicated mess it is.

http://seekingalpha.com/article/2300...n?source=yahoo

"On Wednesday, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) increased the amount of ethanol that it allows to be blended in certain cars from 10% to 15% (E15). This change applies only to light fleet automobiles with the model year 2007 and later, representing about 20% of the US fleet. The EPA is currently finalizing its testing of model years 2001-06 and is expected to make an announcement in late November on whether these vehicles are safe for E15.

Why did the EPA revise the “blend wall”?

First generation ethanol is the dominant biofuel in the United States, accounting for roughly 95% of the domestic biofuel market. Largely produced via corn fermentation, the U.S will utilize approximately one-third of its corn crop to produce an estimated 12.6 billion gallons of ethanol in 2010.

Given that ethanol only contains two-thirds of the energy density as gasoline, ethanol will displace about 8.4 billion gallons of gasoline in 2010 --- or 6.1% of the U.S. gasoline market on a btu basis. On a volumetric basis, 12.6 billion gallons of ethanol production represents more than 9% of the gasoline market, perilously close to the 10% limit that is considered safe for autos. Since an additional one billion gallons of production capacity will come online in the next year, the U.S. is set to surpass the 10% blend wall sometime in 2011 (see Biofuels 2010: Spotting the Next Wave).

Assuming that vehicles from 2001-2010 represent 60% of the U.S. market and for the foreseeable future, these autos are the only ones approved by the EPA to use E15, this would expand ethanol’s addressable blend market from approximately 13.7 to 17.8 billion gallons.

How did we get here and what are the implications of this change?

Prior to the banning of MTBE in the mid-2000s by 25 states, ethanol was used primarily as a fuel oxygenate. When Congress passed the “Energy Independence and Security Act of 2005” (EISA) mandating escalating amounts of biofuel into the nation’s liquid transportation fuel supply, it changed the equation as ethanol began being used as a substitute for gasoline.

Flush with agricultural lobbyist money, Congress revisited EISA in 2007 and revised the “Renewable Fuels Standard” component of EISA to require the consumption of even more corn ethanol. While carving out portions for “cellulosic”, “biodiesel,” and “advanced” biofuels, Congress mandated that 15 billion gallons of corn ethanol be blended into the nation’s gasoline supply by 2015. With subsidies (see Congressional Budget Office Paints Dismal Portrait on Ethanol Subsidies) estimated by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office to surpass $7.6B in 2010 in the form of a $0.45/gal Volumetric Ethanol Excise Tax Credit (aka the “Blender’s Credit”) and the $0.54/gal import tariff on Brazilian sugarcane, corn ethanol has become big Business as companies like Valero (VLO), Archer Daniels Midland Corporation (ADM), and Sunoco (SUN) have become major players.

In recent years, the EPA has faced considerable pressure from lobbyist groups like the Renewable Fuels Association and Growth Energy --- via Congressional leaders on both sides of the aisle --- to defer rigorous scientific testing on the safety of higher blends of ethanol and the lifecycle greenhouse emissions of corn ethanol. Senators Harkin, Grassley, and Nelson even threatened to scrap EPA funding in a 2010 Senate Appropriations Bill if the EPA did not play ball.

This might make some believe that the blend wall announcement was an example political pandering upstaging science.

In conversations with senior EPA officials involved in the decision to change the blend wall-- who spoke on the condition of anonymity-- the officials adamantly stated that despite constant calls from politicians from corn-rich states, politics played no role in relaxing the blend rate.

Misguided Congressional policies that have stacked the deck in favor of one technology without considering the implications of that technology “winning” is at the root of why a blend wall revision even needed consideration. For example, when Congress passed revisions to EISA in 2007, it did not provide a roadmap or the requisite funding to upgrade the up or downstream liquid transportation infrastructure to handle increasing blends of ethanol.

While it only costs $100-$500 to retrofit an automobile to accommodate “E85” (85% ethanol and 15% gasoline), the costs of replacing one gasoline pump and retrofitting the equipment to carry E85 at an existing site is estimated by the EIA to cost between $22,000-$80,000. This cost disparity partially explains why there are an estimated 8 million Flex-Fuel Vehicles (vehicles that can run off 85% ethanol) in the United States while only 2,300 of the 170,000 gas stations in the United States are equipped to handle E85 blends.

In light of the blend wall change, it remains to be seen how gas stations will handle a situation in which E15 is proven to be safe in one set of automobiles but not others. Station owners will need to clearly demarcate whether the fuel is E10 or E15 --- which could prove onerous and an impediment to widespread adoption.

Additionally, it is unclear who will be liable if a car owner with a 1997 Ford Taurus accidentally puts the wrong fuel in and suffers damage. It seems likely that unless the EPA approves all automobiles for E15, gas stations will be less inclined to put variegated blends of ethanol in its gasoline pumps which should temper expectations that a partial increase in the blend wall will lead to a short-term spike in ethanol consumption. That being said, the change in blend wall takes a significant step towards compliance with the 31 billion gallons of corn and cellulosic ethanol required to be used in the nation's gasoline supply by 2022 under the Renewable Fuels Standard."

Better link

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/fuels/additive/e15/

Excerpt
What Vehicles May Use E15?
MY2007 and newer cars.
MY2007 and newer light-duty trucks.
MY2007 and newer medium-duty passenger vehicles.
top of page

What Vehicles and Engines May Not Use E15?
All motorcycles.
All vehicles with heavy-duty engines, such as school buses, transit buses, and delivery trucks.
All off-road vehicles, such as boats and snowmobiles.
All engines in off-road equipment, such as lawnmowers and chain saws.
All 2006 model-year and older cars.

More political bull sh#! does absolutly nothing !! you have to burn more, so you get less MPG screws up anything that does not run constantly...typical Obama B/S !!!

Funny that they should say these vehicles should not use the new blend, but they don't really give us any alternatives as to where we can find the proper stuff. I see nothing but problems ahead for my 2 stroke outboard.

The biggest lesson for all of us out of this mess is that we can now fully understand how one gets a "Political Science" degree. Political science obviously has nothing in common with real science. I can't wait to vote these idiots out of office!

Hard to say whom anymore. As last decade proved, this is not a partisan issue. The Farm Belt has been controlled by the corn lobbyists for many years, and they were very successful in getting E10 mandated last decade. The current E15 phase was planned years ago, they just had to go through bells and whistles to get it approved.

Guys like Bruce Rastetter, CEO of Hawkeye Energy Holdings, a major Ethanol company. He's listed as a huge contributor to the American Future Fund, which is yet another of the large 501C groups that lobbies for their buddies. A huge reason that powerful people did not want the 501 groups to be shut out from political season. Nor do any of them want to be identified.

15% Ethanol and Marine uses = Disaster!
 

Bottom Line:

DO NOT RUN 15% ETHANOL IN ANY BOAT AND AVOID 10% ETHANOL WHEN YOU CAN!

For those who fuel on the water at lakes and marinas make sure you let your fuel dealers know you want a non-blended gasoline available for your and other boaters usage and if they won't or can't supply non-blended gasoline you will have to buy from someone else and they will loose the business ! Money is the best motivator!

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Every marina around Sarasota has non ethanol gasoline availible. Some even have 93 octane premium. As long as I have this availible I won't have to worry about ethanol.
Guess I will have to keep my fingers crossed they don't do away with it.

I agree, a lot of marinas on Lake St. Clair in Michigan have pure gas, and I let them know thats why I am buying from them. Also Vavetec fuel sold as marine gas still has ethanol in it but with some stablizer which I won't run either. There was a marina on Lake St.Clair that got rid of there pure gas fuel one season, only to bring it back due to the loss of sales and boaters *****ing about it.

i'm in kansas and the only place that have blends in their 91+ are the Casey's stores. i was also told by a store owner they have to have the pumps marked if they are a blend.

Interesting article.

http://www.boatingmag.com/maintenanc...ller-your-boat

Definately check with your local marinas that offer fuel on the water, they should continue to sell non ethanol gas for as long as it is being produced. I still fill mine up off the lake before boating, but i have an old gas station near me that offers non ethanol fuel. For those who don't have that comfort, and you have no choice but to gas up with ethanol you can add marine formula STA-BIL with ethanol treatment everytime you fill up. Try your best to plan ahead for the amount of fuel you need, cause even when adding this I don't suggest leaving it in your tank for very long. During winterization, I would recommend draining your tank.

For those of you who are wanting to stay up to date, STA-BIL's website has an ethanol 411 section which sheds more light on the ever changing subject.

http://www.goldeagle.com/engine_care/411onethanol.aspx

Do you happen to know which Lk. St. Clair marinas sell pure gas, and which sell blended gas?

I know Beacon Cove Marina, Belle Maer Harbor, and Anchor Bay Marina for sure and I believe Algonac Harbor has switched back to pure gas too. I am sure there are a few others but these are the ones I fuel at because of where I boat mainly.

These are the pure gas marinas...........I am not sure of the blended since the pumps are not marked which should be a law in this state, I guess you will have to ask when you fuel up.

In most cases the crap is mandated by locallity...is where we are there is NO strait gas available....so basiclly screwed !!

As a fuel supplier I can tell you that your fuel supplier CAN still get non ethanol fuel. We still sell it to country clubs and marinas in our area. Most large terminals do still carry it and as of right now NON of the majors in our area are switching to the 15% yet. They are going to continue to carry the 10% blend. As far as the commnets earlier that premium and plus don't have ethanol in them that is not correct. The facilities that are selling ethanol blended fuel are bringing in 84.5 octane fuel for regular(at least its 84.5 in the east. Different altitudes have different octane ratings required). Using the old regular as mid grade and the old mid grade as premium. pure NEAT (non ethanol)90 Octane fuel is actually harder to come by. When you blend in ethanol they gain the 2 octane points needed to sell the fuel and they can buy it at a cheaper price than the old stuff. Ethanol fuel is about the refiners making more money because they are getting a tax break for the ethanol they sell and they are producing a cheaper crude oil. Some of this may fizzle out over time. The biggest reason for ethanol use is all these refiners built a ton of large ethanol production facilities and they overestimated how much they needed. Now refiners are left with a facility that is producing more ethanol than they can sell. Supply and demand chart sums that part up; now they have an over production of product and they have to sell it cheaper than they anticipated. No one is ready for the ethanol boom and suppliers will fight it until they beleive most of the market is driving 2007 or newer vehicles.

If I can't find non blended gas I throw in several gallons of 100LL Avgas. (For those of you that don't know, LL stands for "low lead" which is actually far from the truth since it has more lead than the old leaded car gas.) It seems to work good in my boat and other vehicles without cats. The only problem is that Avgas is getting so expensive it takes the fun out of it.

Not sure about where you live but we have ethanol in 93 here in Indiana and Michigan... boats are suffering and so are sleds. Have to run a combative such as starbrite star tron fuel treatment in order to save critical motor parts from grenading. Ski-Doo owners can vouch for this... especially those up north where the winter blend is worse... this sucks!

wow thats not cool, the info i got about us not having it here, was from a supplier. :confused::confused: so i guess i'm lost.

Exactly! I don't really believe there is straight gas out there anymore. I have a feeling these places are feeding you lines of :bsflag:

This stuff is a new product out by AMSOIL and is going to sell like hotcakes this winter due to the ethanol issues in sleds!

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/aqs.aspx

We played hell with my wife's pontoon with a Suzuki 2 stroke outboard. Had to take it to the dealer finally and had all the fuel lines replaced, fuel pump and all three carbs rebuilt. Dealer recommended that we use an ethanol absorbing product called Startron. In Michigan I have had to run ethanol fuel in my Scarab for over three years now. Knock on wood that I have not had a problem. I do keep Stabil in the fuel year round though. Maybe that is helping me out.