how much power does the scx rob over the xr

SD I don't disagree with your basic premise about the Arn. vs. SCX however the completed SCX can be had for 14. You need only the SCX Helmet (950), a bigger oil reservoir (200) to install on a bravo hd transom. No need to pull motors or do any glasswork. I was quoted 23/side for the ASD set up and it would require fiberglass work on the transom. Also propellers and testing are a major factor in cost. In my application the arneson would be a 60 K upgrade with labor since can't do it myself. The SCX about half that. If I sell my rig I can stick the XR's on there and sell the SCX and recoup some of my investment. The arneson is superior by far. But is too expensive for me.

SCX price
 

Is that $14K for a new or a used SCX?

Check out Diamond performances add in the classifieds.... 13.5 thousand new, I'm figuring somewhere around 300 for shipping. You should know that most are using SC lowers instead of the SCX lower which is a hydrodynamic pig....

Hold On..
 

I'm following your logic one piece at a time. Not to be argumentative but this is exactly why I was singing. And THANKS for your input and additional help but - -- - -

I knew the SCX could be had for less than my quote. But so can the ASD-6 by at least a couple 2 - 3 K in this market with cash etc.

But with the SCX Helmet at 900 and the oil bottle at 300, are you forgetting about that 1K HD gimbal ring. Would you hang that nice azz SCX on a chitty bravo ring even if it does fit which according to Imco I would still need it? Remember that I don't have an HD transom assembly now. I have the basic one..

Further, I have no interest in putting an SCX on a Merc transom where I will then need to purchase and install separately, all their steering crap cause it won't work with my system without major custom fab etc.

I just counted 12 below-the-waterline holes in my boat that need to be filled. 4 for the thru-hull Latham steering lines and 8 holes for the four-hole ram brackets on the boat.

Latham and Imco do NOT line up so in order to make the steering happen for me I still need to pull engine and buy the full Imco transom to get all the steering hardware etc. Latham supports all bravo and trs stuff. To my knowledge nothing Latham will work with Imco. HUGE cost right there!

I'm not saying yet that the ASD-6 has a price tag that is for sure cheaper than putting SCX on my boat but there is no way I'm that far off.

I don't know. I see you're point but I have to respectfully disagree. Thus far.

Where I start falling off is when you consider there is some (how much?) additional glass work to fill part of the notch in my boat AND the prop is expensive.

You can rent the expensive stuff from BBlades and buy what works so it's not as if I need to buy a bunch of props.

I think in my case, the SCX is not very much cheaper than doing it right the first time. If nothing else, the SCX is not a lifetime product. Still have gears (very, very expensive ones). Still have to 90 degree sections. Still have repairs and replacement maintenance...

If you really look at the whole picture it's easier I think to see it. Guys get turned off by the price of ASD cause initially it seems WAY, WAY out there but in reality, they've priced it as high as they could go and still make it work.

I know just a little of your history and if anyone understands supply and demand on here it's you.

for 13.5 K, is that for just the upper or do you get that nasty lower that you have to sell and come up with the lower?

Possibly a shortie and step it down while "you're in there"...

See where I'm goin?

I'm nutz. :bigbird:

Fairly certain that my six line items still hold. Especially number 6 which is a deal killer.

By the time I hang it on the boat, I'm still at minimum 16K but probably at least 7+ mph slower. Arneson is really not more expensive. It's just a big deal to do all of this no matter what it costs. No easy way out which goes back to my crappy choices I was barking about in the very first part of all this.

:lolhit:

I was quoted in the neighborhood of 90 - 100 hp.

Even if it's only 40 hp loss, you're paying a chit load of money to go slower.

So now do you upgrade your upgraded engine or ????

Tellin' ya - the ASD-6 is not that much if they will work with you a little.

SD good luck with your project, it sounds like you are making a good decision with your boat. Post some pictures when your done.

I need more than luck. Thanks! What did you do with your carwash property?

You must have me confused with someone else. No carwashes, I am a Dentist.

No carwashes ever, must have me confused with someone else. I am a Dentist.

whoops. sorry. my short term memory is not good.

:drink:

OK. Then it was a new X1 1.65 drive 300hr @425hp broke the 1.65 X1 upper gears followed by a second brand new X1 1.65 drive 350hrs @600hp broke the 1.65 X1 shaft but the X1 gears were all still ok, finally a third brand new XR 1.50 drive 100hr @600hp wore out the upper 1.5 XR gears correct?

If I remember correctly your 600HO still uses the stock 425HO engine oil cooler and you shut down WOT runs as soon as the engine oil temp gets to 250F. That being the case based on my testing of an X1 1.5 your drive oil temps should not get hotter than that especially with your better drive shower. What drive oil do you use?

Well kinda.

I have the stock oil cooler going to another larger cooler (two oil coolers) plus a thermostat etc.

I don't run engine oil to 250. I stop below that. :drink:

Use AMS Oil AGM. Always have on all those drives. Change every 25 - 30 hours MAX.

Just think of all the oil you save when you go with Arneson. :evilb:

Sometimes engine oil creeps up there though..

BadDog did you ever check the mph vs rpm on that 27 Mirage Plus prop to determine the % slip on your boat?

My mistake. What is the size of your additional larger oil cooler? Did you retain all the stock 496HO oil plumbing lines and fittings along with the stock oil cooler and just splice in the extra oil cooler?

I can buy a lot of oil for the price of any drive much less an Arnesen. The Arnesen sounds like the perfect drive for your type of hard charging boating. I mostly just cruse around with a load of folks or wake board.

Is the "AMS Oil AGM" Amsoil Severe Duty 75W90 or exactly what?

SD,
I completely agree with your thinking (that the Arneson conversion is the way to go compared to the bravo alternatives), but when you're looking at well over $50k to convert over twins, I would suggest you might be better off selling the boat and buying something with better drives already on it...

What I don't understand is if you convert to a scx but use the "sc" lower you are still using a extremely weak lower, at least in my case. I could have bought a scx or something else by now when you add up the 15 sets of lower gears I have ate up in past 10 years plus what went into converting my bravo to the Max Worx stuff AND buying a complete new max worx upgraded drive for a spare and all the rebuilds/bearings parts and oil. My boat is getting old now though and I own all this crap now so I am not going to spend 10,000 plus dollars on another new drive, Smitty

What I've heard is that the SCX lower doesnt go thru the
water real well, unless its set high enough where its surfacing,
most are running deep, and thats why thy're using the more efficent
SC lower

I have read and heard that too, what I am saying is I have tore up so many merc lower gear sets though that IF I ever were to spend another large bundle of money on a SCX I couldn't see running a sc lower which I know will chew the gears up in 15-50 hours on a big power boat, it is definately a dillema, Smitty

I used original plumbing for the oil filter assembly. Left stock oil cooler in its place and put in another 2 1/4 inch cooler and made the lines to fit using push lock.

The AMS Oil that I have used in the drives is AGM-QT Marine 75-80/90 weight.

I guess I have been lucky thus far. God, did I say that?

I've not had any lower gear issues even in my abusive moments..

And I thought about that but many things to consider.

The boat I own is the evil I know. If I buy another boat, I go from a single to twins and if it has surface drives on it great. But what kind of shape is the rest of it in? Engines? Trans?

Over all, it's not a clear easy choice to get another boat. I built this engine. Started from scratch with fuel delivery and many other things. I know the condition of everything. I've slowly fixed and upgraded everything the way I want it.

Starting over would be worse than swallowing a gun.

Steering kit - 3500
used good drive - 3000
my props - 900

sweet talk arneson down from 23 to 19

19 - 7400 = 11,600 plus some fiberglass to get the ASD-6 hung.

If I had a twin engine boat. I would have stopped at about post number 10...

Still seems like a toughy to me even if I don't get the 6 for 19. Say you pay 20 or 21? Still close. And when you consider that I paid Tom 6495 for the XR to begin with????

And that is what I have been leaning towards. SCXs. HMMMM

That "jello" stuff might be what the AMG oil looks like if water gets in it. Just a thought.

What power, gear ratio and prop are you running with that Bravo?

What power, gear ratio and prop are you running with that Bravo?

What power, gear ratio and prop are you running with that drive?

What power, gear ratio amd prop are you running with the Bravo? Average hours to failure?

Off subject you may already know but the stock oil line plumbing has three inverted flare connection points that restrict oil flow down to 3/8" dia. Taking those out really improved my oil pressure when running hot.

Too much power , 1.50 gear , 32 & 34 4blade's with -1 Imco lowers and building bigger power as we speak. :drink: Guess I should be buying some spare upper's.

I'm pushing over 1000 ft lbs of tq and hp, I can turn a 32 pitch 6000 so EVERYTHING is on borrowed time! I never had lower gear problems though until I started making over 700 hp and went from a 28 at the time to a 30 pitch, Smitty

Dick, I think there is a direct correlation between the older gears and power available "at that time" and the newer gears and "power that we are running through them now".

I don't believe that it's a supplier problem. I think as time has gone by, sales probably have fallen a little, a lot, and the average goat working at Merc is not spending much time on the setup.

I'm as guilty as anyone I suppose with respect to always trying to go faster. We want just one or two parts to bolt on and go faster. Due to budgets, we usually do NOT step back and look at the whole drive train and make ALL the upgrades that are probably necessary in a simultaneous fashion.

However, the natural texture so-to-speak regarding the little "orange peel" on the brand new gears tells me that there was work that could have been done that was not done in an effort to save money and the like...

More later.

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year!

Hi J, I've only seen this thread now. Sorry to hear of your XR troubles.
As you know, I've got the same stuff on my boat, though it only has to cope with the stock 496HO.
2006 vintage, 230 hours, and aside from changing oil I never even opened it to inspect - and neither did the previous owner, I suppose.
Time to have a look, according to what I'm reading... How complicated is it to open for inspection?

Oh, and all the best for your ASD project. Did you make any progress in the meantime?
I'm very curious to hear about the results, if you'll go for it.
Also re.maneuverability btw: our boats are not the most maneuverable around the dock with a single outdrive and high X-dim, I don't dare thinking how worse they could get with a surface drive.... :eek:

i don't think this will help much for those with xr failures, so it is more of a personal experience story. i had 4 standard bravo upper failures on my single engine 950 hp cat. in 2005, i had imco upgrade one of the broken drives to xr with some of their other mods. this drive is still in the boats after 6 yrs with no failures or observed serious wear. part of this good result may be do to the earlier gears being stronger. i have a new RPM 26 which is nearly complete. even though it is only 800 hp N/A, i decided to go with the new imco scx-4 surface drive. i may have gotten by with an sc imco, but after reading about all of the failures with xr gears, i decided to play it safe. i only hope that the boat will be as fast and handle as well as with an sc or merc bravo.

i would replace those gears with X gears and when set up properly if it's a shimable upper, you'll get easily 250-300 hours on that boat. Call me if you have any questions.
954 237 0332 John

been reading this thread,and one thing clearly shows up:a lot of guys are pushing too much hp thru those drives...it is the marine equivalent of pushing 900hp thru a 10 bolt gm diff....you KNOW it is going to break eventually,because it was not designed for that application...im sure there are tons of xr performing their duty behind 496s,525s,even 600s with no issues...dont get me wrong...i still think merc sucks,but if i go from 600hp (presently) to 1000hp and my xr strips gears,i wont blame merc...
plus you're scaring the ch*t out of me,cause i just bought an xr!:eek:

The XR is rated at 600 or just above depending on which piece of lit you read or which person you ask.

It also comes as standard equipment behind the Merc blue 600 blower engine.. so I certainly don't feel as though I'm abusing it in any way.

Not to mention... I treated the XR much, much nicer than I treated the regular X drive. They made a change on those gears to save money. And I'm sure it saved money somewhere cause they are made way cheaper than the older ones.

If you consider the warranty replacements than I'd have to wonder if they really saved anything. Who knows?