600HP LS Marine Engine
 

Just read an article on a new LS marine engine to be introduced by Mast Motorsports. I had never heard of them but just checked out their website. They appear to have a lot of experience with the LS engine platform and are taking their first stab at a marine application. Looks like they have done their homework. Should be interesting.

The article is in the new Sportboat magazine.

Fixx
 

DA Link :drink:

http://www.mastmotorsports.com/2010/...=Marine&id=396

Looks like a promising platform for sure. Less weight is a big benefit of them.

Wonder what their pricing is going to be.

They contacted ME around 1-2 years ago, wanting me to offer their units thru my shop and not long after Ray @ Raylar had released his LSM550 if I remember correctly..

They couldn't give me the answers on what to really expect out of it, nor what they would provide with it. They also could not get their pricing in order for me nor tell me what was or included part wise/rigging wise on their engine assembly that was supposedly ready to run..

When I looked into it a little closer before ultimately deciding I had no interest in offering thier product for at least the time being. It was evident that Ray @ Raylar had a unit or units that were similar, finished & running in the real world unlike MAST. Also Ray had complete kit pricing & a preset package with what it would need to run right..

My decision at that point was, If I were to offer a platform like that to a customer it would likely be Ray's set up. The biggest hindrance was then & probably still now today --- The expense.. They are a pricey bugger..

Again that was all based on a while back.... I have not followed them since & maybe they have the engine and pricing sorted out by now.. I do know I would ask a lot of questions & do some homework before thinking of using their unit..

:) J

Yes, I have to agree that it doesn't look like a complete marine package is really thought out just yet. They definitely appear to have experience making serious HP on the LS platform. The one video has the engine on sustained wide open dyno pulls using 89 octane fuel. First pull is at 5800 rpm for 10 minutes, then 4000 rpm for 10 minutes, then 2000 rpm. All at wide open throttle I guess showing the ability to prevent detonation even with reduced octane(?). It has a custom 10 quart oil pan to keep things cooler as well.

http://www.mastmotorsports.com/2010/video-view.php?id=7

It is good to see more companies marinizing these LS engines. IMO I think it will just be a matter of time before a number of reliable and proven LS options are out there, along with a drop in cost as numbers increase. Mast also points out that this engine runs so clean they meet future EPA requirements without the need for a catalytic converter.

I bought over a year ago a mast motorsport programmable ecm and engine wiring for my ls marine engine project and discussed my idears whit them ,they where really a good help and gived me any info and advice I asked for and put in a standard program so I can go from that ,they even contacted me after the purchase a few times to here the progress .
How ever the marine version is a long story and not sure if it's totally ready know ,mine go's on the dyno whit in the next 2 weeks ,forged rotation assembly ls 2 whit ls3 heads and dry sump system from the ls 7 .


I followed there website from the purchase to now and they are deffently not sitting still !!

How much you thinking?

Do the LS engines use the same motor mounts as an old style small block?

It will be between 550 to 600hp ,just stopped by the shop and go friday morning to mount the last things on the engine like the aternator and install exhaust and all hoses ,after that we build it on the dyno and hope to start it up in the afternoon to dail in .
hopefully I have some real numbers this weekend .

No, but if you look around their are conversion mounts to go in to the sbc/bbc spots.

Coming from a LS1 racing background, I can tell you that the motors are extremely reliable and MAST has been in the LS engine game long enough to know what they're doing. One motor I ran was a stock long block with boltons and a 150hp shot that had been raced every week for 70k miles. When the engine got a heads/cam swap, the cylinder bores still had the factory cross hatching marks with 105k miles on it and the motor has yet to die or make a noise.

The one thing I can say is to STAY AWAY from a aluminum LS1 block that has been big bore sleeved! MTI and ARE were doing this in the early days of the big cubic inch wars and alot of them ended up dropping sleeves. Go for a 6.0L iron block stroker or LSX block setup if you want bigger cubes.

I emailed this outfit to see what the pricing was. They replied very promptly. Here is what they had to say:

Final pricing has not been established, but we are targeting a complete engine with headers and accessories should be in the neighborhood of $30,000.00 retail. The engine will be rated for 6200 RPM max with 600hp and 570 Ft/lbs.

We should know much more in the upcoming months as we prepare for a late 2011 release date.

I will keep you on our contact list to send info as we get it.

Thank you for contacting Mast Motorsports,



Scott Mount

Finaly on the dyno ,having lot of problems whit the calibaration but have now 540hp and 535 ft/lbs tq from 4000 to 5500 rpm but will find a little more after the fine tuning .

I think the cmi's take some hp because there 's no murch collector in what the ls engine likes .

Thanks for the update. Is this engine going in your Phantom?

Yes it comes in the phantom (uk) attach to a Blackhawk drive ,
the boat is normally outboard but I have it converted to inboard as well as the complete inside construction ,new stringers,transom and a bulkhead in the front,because that was very bad wood and mounted ,so basicly build a new boat .

got the engine back from the dyno ,here the results ,have a pair lightning headers on the way to customise and see what they do whit our idears.

Bor:

Might help a few people here on OSO if you would convert the numbers to HP and same for torque numbers shown in NM so they could relate to the outputs better here in the US.
thanks,

Best Regards,
Ray @ Raylar

Fixx
 

411.0 hp

541.0 Tq

????????

Cool setup...would like to see some numbers on a similar setup with forced induction. I can invision a 3.3 on top of that.

Cool setup...would like to see some numbers on a similar setup with forced induction. I can invision a 3.3 on top of that.

Best I can tell...

545 ft*lb peak torque at 4400 rpm
551 HP at 6100 rpm

Bor,

Attached is the full conversion from Nm/Kw to Lbs_Ft/Hp. Can you tell more regarding the displacement and other particulars.

Bob

specs
 

Thanks Bob for the conversion sheet ,

The engine was a new ls 2 block whit l92 heads and high inlet manifold wich the used in the gm trucks .

We stroked it to 403 cid whit a forged rottation assembly from compstar ,compression is 10.5 the valve train is updated whit psi springs the heads are standard we used a ls3 intake manfold and a 90 mm throttle body we used the dry sump sytem of a ls7 on the engine and put cmi headers as exhaust .
the closed cooling we used the components of the pcm z06 marine engine and made them fit .

Rays LSM550 and this Mast engine intrigue me and Im mildly shopping this market at the moment.

Thing is I/ had my 500 hp 500/lb ft 406 small block built for about 10 grand. I got about a decade out of it before a rebuild.
It's relatively simple and when something goes wrong I can deal with it.
It idles like a kitten and rocks hard. Very little bling here, she aint pretty but she's got a lot of heart.

I have no doubt both of these wicked small blocks are stouter and cleaner running than mine but 10 to 20K better?

If I'm idling out someplace and one stops running- I'm not sure I can do anything about it.

Seems if Im going to spend that cash a solid BBC is within grasp.

Then again I like having a wicked small block and still laugh out loud while putting big blocks on the trailer.


Uncle Dave

UD,

Couple things. It would be interesting to look closely at the potential weight savings when comparing LS to your current small block.

Can the LS platform of equivalent HP levels run on lower octane fuel? The Mast engine example above runs on 89 octane. I guess the potential for higher HP LS platforms running 91-93 octane is there.

IMO another advantage besides lighter weight and improved breathing/efficiency is the variable cam timing which gives you more area under the torque curve. This is not considered when just comparing peak HP and torque numbers. The dyno run posted by bor shows 500+ lb*ft of torque from 3400 to 5600 rpm. This is what you will feel in the seat of the pants.

The aluminum block would help and I guess If I spend 4K I can get that as well,

The cam phasing is really the big thing it seems to me.

Closed cooling is nice, but Im not running salt so Im not sure what that really buys me.

Yes the torque curve is impressive on those mills, but it doesn't seem 20K better than my garage special.

Seems to me I can about duplicate their performance with a larger cubic inch short block, but I dont know for sure.

Seems like Im better off just building a big block vs the LS/ or Ford, ---thoughts?

UD

With all things being equal, I don't think we are looking at a 20K difference. It would be interesting to know what the actual cost difference is if using the same accessories and EFI system. I suppose you could build your own LS and put a carb on it as well.

Just for grins I pulled up two crate engine packages (I know, auto engines) of similar HP for comparison. I know they are not identical in terms of accessories, but the LS package is $3800 cheaper and make more HP (although I don't think it comes with the ECU). Anyways, I don't think the cost is that much different when comparing apples to apples. Food for thought.:drink:

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-19244549

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-46383/

In terms of cost Im going off what MAST is saying - 30K
And last I checked the LSM 550 goes for 25K

Those are basically turn key ready to roll.

Never had a crate motor work out for me, or anyone I know but Im sure they could. Neither of this crate engines put out what my backyard rig does, much less gets me to 600. (one is pretty close, but Id like to see a full dyno run for it.

IF you add accessories and exhaust and a new cam to prevent reversion(then you need a new tune etc) the price of these crate engines starts to climb pretty quick which is why the turn key offerings are 25 & 30K.

Is this list price- sure, but Im only in the market for 1 engine and should likely not get much off that price if any at all.

Im not saying that this packages aren't awesome- I think they are and Id love one in my littlle tunnel

Im just wondering if Im not just better off building a big block and being done with it.

In the meantime I'll be watching these new modern small blocks closely.


Uncle Dave

Gotcha. I guess my point was the cost a traditional small block of similar horsepower back yard built with EFI, CMI headers, electronics, accessories, etc..., essentially a turn-key package is not 20K less than Raylar or MAST. I wonder what a back yard built LS combo (carbed) would cost(?).

Regarding a big block for your little tunnel, I would be concerned about getting a bit tail heavy and losing some handling.

Whatever you decide, good luck and be sure to post updates. I always enjoy that kind of stuff.:coolcowboy:

I did the ls because I have a little 21ft wich is 6 ft wide and above all a good friend build these for a race class here in europe and knows them in and out .

It begin as alittle project to convert a outboard hull which I owned a long time and was given up and came along a never rigged hull and bought that to convert and put in a merc 6.2 or 496 ho but that should be quite heavy on the stern.

I bought the ls cheap on ebay and convert it whit my friend wich I enjoy and in the mean time I converted the hull wich was a big project due to the poor quality of the wood and stringer mounting ,so basicly I build almost a complete new boat .

The engine is a nice option for the smaller boats and make some nice power 450-500hp whitout big changes and $$$$ but it cost a lot of time to custom make a lot things .But is a nice replacement for a 5.7 , 6.2 or 454 in the smaller boats .

Closed cooling is a must due to the alluminium

The Mast and raylar engines are coming whit headers which is also a 4-5k wich is a option on other engines so Ray,s engine is arround 20K which is not much more then a new 496ho

We even not use the vvt !!:ernaehrung004:

MAST Engineering
 

BTW Congrats on your new killer mill Bor


I see in a prior mail from MAST it was signed by Scott Mount.

Is this the same Scount Mount from Ilmor?

If so thats a score for MAST. Scott was very proffesional personable and put out a solid product.

This is my other smal block (with 2 extra cylinders)


Uncle Dave

Uncle dave ,

I d'ont know about Scott Mount but I do know that Mast is growing very fast and they do a lot on R&D there tech support is also very good ,got even some mails from the president on the progress of my project ,very nice and helpfull people there !

I used the closed cooling from PCM they have a ss sea waterpump that bolts direct on the block ,it's the big black pulley on the left side .
for the steering I use a electric pump .

That's the most beautifull marine engine I have seen till now and probally is one of the best there's made till know !
That will also be a nice look in the bilge from my 21 ft !

Maybe in a few years ,have have some goals in life !

there is a small thread on here about the project

http://boatmad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10168

Bor