Problematic ProChargers
 

Has anyone had problems with ProcCharger Systems on their MerCruiser engines besides me? Blown head gaskets , fuel system headaches, and other gremlins. If so I would greatly appreciate you listing them

Not personally,, but heard alot,,, I was told NEVER run a Procharger without changing head gastket to the metal ring style,,, also heard of #8 cyl lean problems, and a bigger injector has been used in only that cyl,,,, HMMMM !!!!

I ran 5 lbs of boost with m1sc systems for about 120 hours. Totally stock stuff. Never a problem.

I ran 5 lbs of boost with m1sc systems for about 120 hours,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Then what happened,,,,, thats one season of boating for us.????

I run a stage 2 ProCharger at 5-6 lbs with stock head gaskets,no problems at all!Also know of six other people in my area with ProChargers,no problems! I have heard stories of people running ProCharger and Whipple that have had those type of problems though, I am sure that if either system is properly set up and only premium gas is used that all are trouble free for the most part.

Who set your system up? Tell us about what you have & problems.

Have friend who had procharger on his crownline. He ran that thing wide open all the time. I was waiting for motor to let loose but never did.

Friend has 2 on his new boat & after about 200 hrs still going strong.

I have stage4 setup that I put on first of this year but only have about 25-30 hrs so far with no problems.

:cool:
I'm on my second Procharger boat now (twins) & I have never had any problems with or as a result of the Procharger system.
Ran 5-7# boost on the last one, 5# on this one with EFI- Arizona speed. All had/have original factory gaskets. :)

You need more fuel. I ran a seperate line to the rails for more flow and also made a real return line from the regulator to the tank. I tee'd into the breather tube for the gas tank and my regulator works awesome under boost. Are you running stage I or II? More info in general would help. Replace the factory head gaskets with Felpro's also. Keep in touch.:cool:

Setup was done in Long Island, ECU was sent out along with Manifold to be modified by Arizona Speed , head gaskets were changed as well, still blew head gasket on port engine for the 4 time with less then 8 hrs.

What is your fuel pressure under boost and did you tell Jim from ASM of this problem? Hate to say it but a few people seem to be unhappy with their new computer tune from ASM. If you are running stock injectors then you should have a good 60psi to help feed that boost. Alot of ProCharged users are still running the factory computer with no changes in timing, fuel ect. Is it always the same piston area for the blown gasket? This should not be happening. Are you bouncing off the rev limiter during a run and do you seem to lose gaskets at full speed or at any RPM? Sorry for all the questions but your situation seems to be rare. 4 times in 8hrs is just incredible to me. If it would help you then give me a call so I can hear what you have going. I will PV my cell to you if you are interested. Scott

Are the block and the head true and are you always blowing the same gasket?

Chris

I've had two PC's.

The first I had many "gremlins" as you put it. But I was trying to get more from the blower than what it could give me.
Not engine problems. Just wasn't getting the power I wanted.

I now have a stage 4 and no problems...knock on wood.

I've always used the Fel-pro head gasket and it's carb'd.

DAVE

Hey Dave how's it going? Is that a dual carb setup you are running? 504 intercooler?

Tom,

No. I was using single Nickerson 800 holley. I am using the 504 intercooler however.

I was running around 8-9# in the manifold. Around 10-12 in the box.

This weekend, weather permitting, will be the last for me and my Formula.
I sold it last weekend.

This couple saw the boat, commented how they liked it, I told them it was for sale.
They said "oh ya"
I lifted the engine hatch and they said, "HOLY $$$HIT!!!!!!"

Anyway, I took them for a ride, gave them the option for an HP500 or as is.
At the end of the day, they gave me a deposit at the dock! That was Sat. The guy calls me last night, says he wants to stop by and give me the balance. I haven't even started on the motor yet!

They said 900hp was a little too much, they chose the 500. So, this weekend is the last hurrah. I'll start on it Mon.

DAVE

Two happiest days in a boater's life... I'm sure you will find something else to put that engine into. What are the dimensions of a Stage 4 compressor? Is the discharge 3.5" diameter?

Tom,

If I remember correctly, it's the 5.5" inlet and 4" outlet. The housing is 12".
I do have a dual box, still in it's wrapping sitting in the garage.

Believe it or not, I'm not happy to be rid of it, I am, however, looking very much forward to buying something newer, bigger and arguebly, better.

Life can't be better for me right now.
Sold my old boat and got the $ I was asking.
New baby girl on the way, due in Sept.
New boat by next season.

I'm sure that I'll be staying with a single carb. I plan on building my own carb box lid to accept the 4" inlet next time, however.

DAVE

Dave - Would you be interested in trying my improved intercooler configuration? You're modifying the carb box anyway. Send me an email to discuss.

Tom

Dave and Tom,
my M3 has a 3.5 in and a 4 out(?)
Dave, regarding your slippage from the other post,
what size was the driven pulley you were using. I have a 4.5" 12 rib that is suppose to give 5 lbs on a 502. I'm thinking that I'll need a 4.0" to achieve that on my 540. To make things worse I'm probably going to need to produce 7 lbs at our 4500 ft elevation in order to get to 135 kPa which would be the equivalent to 5 lbs of boost at sea level. This may require a 3.75" pulley and be about the limit for the M3. Was your pulley that small?
What size pulley was slipping on you?
Congrats on the new one!:p
Thanks
Dave G.

Dave F.

Congrats on your sale. Not often things happen and fall together for a person this well. Looks like there may be a "BT" coming over the horizion sooner than someone thought. Glad Mama is doing well and I know you guy's are thrilled. Keep me posted on the birth and I'll be looking for my Cigar (Never seen a Pink Cigar).
I would like to thank you again for all the help and advice that you gave me in the installation - setup of my ProCharger M3SC system. You guy's better pay attention to this fellow, he knows his crap about the ProCharger carbed systems. He guided me through to what has proven to be an outstanding setup. This carbed M3SC w/ a 504 intercooler starts and behaves as well as any fuel injected ProChager boat I have ever been around.
Now if I can just hook up all the torque and HP I'll be right. Hydromotives don't get it (to much lift and slip) and I'm waiting on a 28P Bravo I to arrive tomorrow. I don't know where that lack of bottom end power is at that they talk about while trying to plane, they must have it all because this system makes awsome power throughtout the RPM range.
Had to say it Dave!!! You deserve alittle respect for the help and knowledge that you provide to this board.

Valley Boy

Nordic,

I was spinning a 2.65 driven with a 7.65 crank and a 3.05 trans. That equals 48426 impeller rpm @ 5500 motor r's.
Problem was, never made it there due to the slip.

So what I did was; send it back to PC and have them put a 3.36 gear in it
Use a Whipple crank pulley = 8.75
Used a 3.05 driven on the PC

That comes out to 53000 impeller rpm which is where I wanted to be.

Redline on the impeller is 60000, anything past 55000 is not doing anthing but heating up the air known as "stone walling"
Plus you risk harmonic destruction of the impeller above 60k.


Valley

I was wondering how you've been. I thank you for the kind words and good wishes.
I of course return the good wishes for the new grandson.
I wish you all the luck with the new PC.

When you want to step up to around 8-900hp send me the motor and I'll set it up for ya.
:D :D
When my baby girl is born, pink cigars for everyone:cool:

The respect has to be earned. Like I've said a million times on this board, YOU HAVE TO MATCH YOUR PARTS. You were willing to listen and take my advice and match them. I can't tell you how happy I am that you are happy with your system.

any time I can help
DAVE

Thanks Dave,
sounds like your the right guy.
The M3 with the 4.44 gearing/7.65 crank pulley/and 3.5 (if I need it) will give me a pretty good impeller speed of 51,434.
53k is the listed limit. Sounds like it shouldn't be a problem with the 12 rib at all. I could even go with a 3.375 and be just over 53k if I had to.

Good to hear your setup is running so well Valley Guy! Gives me encouragment; especially about the bottom end.
:D

Thanks
Dave

Dave F and NordicHeat

You guys are scaring me...50,000 RPM!!! No wonder you don't have bottom end response problems. Seriously though, has anyone got a compressor map for the M3/M4 blowers? What kind of efficiency are you getting? I'm looking at a Vortech V-7 YS trim compressor map right now, and at 50,000 RPM the most efficient operating point is 90 lbs/min @ 19 psi boost. This is right at the edige of the 70% efficiency curve. That's good for 900 HP, but 19 psi boost just isn't happening on a boat. What's up?

Tom

Ooooh, Dave F, you are opening yourself up for lots of detailed brain picking (I'll start...).

Have twins - so everything is doubled.
I am aiming for around 750hp. Starting with carbed Mk4 502's. Already have a M3 blower and 504 intercooler with carb box. I have 950cfm 4150HP Holley with black floats. Have MSD billet distributor with mechanical advance, MSD Digital 6 box, Crane high voltage coils and wires.

I plan to run Crane 731 hydraulic roller (installed per the spec card) with 138# springs (closed) with moly pushrods and Gold rockers with U-bolt style girdles for insurance. I have titanium retainers with 10degree locks. I plan to run needle brg cam buttons and needle bearing cam sprockets with a cast aluminum timing cover (for cam walk).

I plan to run Edelbrock RPM AirGap intakes and a 1/2" phenolic carb spacer with 4 holes (as opposed to the open style). I plan to run steam lines from the rear water ports and open the intake gasket holes in the back water ports and "halfway" block the ports on the front water passages (to pull hot water out of the rear of the block). I have Fluidamprs to run instead of stock dampers. I will use a water crossover and a pressure relief set to 18psi. Exhaust will be CMI E-tops running reduced water.

I plan to hone (320 grit) and run TSG top ring and standard second ring. I will run a FelPro gasket with the stainless wire ring (not the kind that requires machining). I want to set the squish up to no more than .038" (from the piston "flat" to the head) for turbulence to combat knock. I will replace my exhaust valves with inconel but will run the stock stainless intakes. I plan to do minor bowl work and a 3-angle valve job (with a fat sealing face for longevity). I guess I will run PC guide seals (but would like to find vitons if I have room for them). I will be using studs on the heads.

I plan to run stock bottom end, but will replace bearings with Clevite H bearings at Mercury stock clearances.

I will set the motor up for 92 octane, but will have the option to use the wired retard on the Digital 6 box as a "bad gas" switch to back off the timing 3 or 4 degrees.

I have been looking at the StartGuard ignition control that provides individual cylinder retard per a knock sensor. Unit also has a cool dash display that will show the retard and the output of an O2 sensor ( I plan to have them in the tailpipes before the water). I will also have pyrometers in the CMI primaries.

I have Aeromotive electric pumps and boost-indexed regulators. I will run the return fuel thru coolers before going back to a tee in line on the pump feed side.

I will have gauges for fuel pressure (just before the box), box pressure, manifold pressure/vacuum, EGT, O2, retard, oil temp (adding thermostat for oil), etc...

I am hopeful that I have picked parts that will give me what I am after. I want a motor (s) that idle without loading up, pulls on plane without laboring, cruises "relatively" efficiently, and pumps out big power at 5400-5600rpm. I also want decent life expectations on rings, bearings, lifters, springs, and valve seats.

I am planning on the dual plane intake cause I think it will give me better idling and low speed behavior. Because of the dual plane intake (and spacer with 4 holes) I think I can use the 950 Holley without it being "too big" (each 4cyl uses 475 cfm instead of all 8 sharing 950). I'm not as worried about flow under boost cause the blower will make up the difference.

I haven't planned any big mods for the rect. port heads, but am wondering if I should...

I know my major hurdles come in the areas of the carbs and timing, but hope that i can work out the gremlins one at a time and reach my goals. I am guessing 6 or 7 # of boost is where I will need to be.

Any criticism or advice is welcome.

M

mcollinstn,

The valve train sounds good. The exhaust valve seat should be around .080. The intake doesn't need to be near as wide because of the cool charge going by it. The wide seat is how the exhaust valve cools itself.

One question. How are you gonna get the quench space to be .038 when the gasket is .039? If you're using stock rod length and piston pin heigth that leaves you with .020 below deck add the .039 =.059.
.038 is about perfect but as long as you're under .060.

Keep me posted on how like the dual plane manifold. I've always used a single.

Water flow. I wouldn't worry about a relief valve and all that. I had CMI E tops and simply used no t-stat and flowed all the water to the bottom of the CMI's. Never had problem.
That way I was able to run 6-7# and still had full timing at 35*.
I was using 94 octane though.

Bearings are good choice. I take it that you took your block all the way down and are having it re-done.
That would explane the honing grit of 320. I personally like it done with a 400 grit. But, 320 is acceptable.

I never had luck with the 4 hole spacer. It wouldn't run right for me, maybe you'll have better luck. I switched to the open one and liked it better.

With your combo I'm sure that you'll be around 750hp.
I used the Merlin 345 rectangles. My set up was almost the same as yours. I just had a stage 4.

I also think all your instrumentation is a good idea also. My plan is use O2 sensors next time around also.

I see your fuel return is according to the schematic. I liked to return the fuel back to the tank. Then that way, I didn't need a cooler.

Keep us posted as to your progress.
DAVE

Still collecting parts. Was sitting at 90% in March and decided to postpone the install till fall. 370 hour motors are still sitting happily in the hull ready to run for one more summer.

Was sure hoping that stock deck was closer to -.005 to -.010, but sounds like it is not. I am using stock rotating assy so I figure your #s sound right. I may deck .010 from the blocks but refuse to remove more for all the intake alignment and pushrod issues decking causes.

I am questioning my choice of intake since nobody seems to have much experience with it. I have access to a pair of Darts, but have been figuring that with the additional 4 inches in pitch or so I am staring at, I'd be happier with some more grunt out of the hole and that the dualie would also make the carb selection more tolerable (I already have the carbs).

I did speak to Total seal and they specifically want a 280-320 grit hone at a 25 degree hatch angle. They told me that it WAS okay to knock the peaks off with a 400 stone afterwards though (I still can't help thinking 280 is too coarse).

Interesting, your experience with a 4-hole spacer. I wonder if the results differ for a dual plane versus the single?..

Running "STAT less" with the CMI's, did you have any trouble getting the motor temp up over 140 or so (that's where I'd like to get)?

I agree. 280 grit does seem way to coarse. However, if they (total seal) say they want you to use 280-320 then use it. That's how they get their rings to seal.

From everything I've read, the Darts are a better intake.

If you want 140* then you're gonna need a stat. I didn't use one cause I wanted all the timing the octane could handle.

It's my opinion that I was able to run 7# of boost all last year, with 35* total timing because I was able to keep the heads cool to stay out of detonation.
The temp on the hottest, muggiest day barely got the needle off the seat which starts at 100*
I realize there are other issues with the block being too cold, but non of them more important than staying out of detonation.

If the carbs do not perform properly, ie; idle, still lean with large jets etc. Dont fool with them. Just send them off to Nickerson. It's worth it to by-pass the aggravation. As a matter of fact, I would just start off with him if you had any question about the carbs at all.

Keep me posted as to your progress

DAVE

Obnoxus-.Nothing, 120 hrs isn’t a full season for me. We got a late start installing and missed some boating time. I upgraded to m3sc systems for this year and have about 15 hrs without a problem. Although not totally stock anymore.

Mcollinstn,
You have mentioned the issue about low speed torque with turning a bigger prop, I don't think you will find this much of an issue. Contrary to their stereotype, Prochargers make plenty of power at 2500 or 3000 to get you moving quickly out of the hole. Good luck with you system. MIne is a stage 4 with dual carbs, and I am finding the biggest issue with prochargers is the setting of the box forward with the dual carb setup. corrected it by turning the box around and running MSD crank trigger. Looking at tunnel rams now to further improve my setup so the intake charge has an unrestricted shot into the intake port.

js

keep us informed as to the results of the tunnel ram. I'm still in confused limbo as to what direction to go in my intake choice. (I don't have anywhere near the clearance to run a tunnel ram, though, so that one is out for me).

the low temp with no stat to combat knock is a sensible idea. Had not really given that angle much thought before.

M

mcollinstn - Good luck with your engine, you have some great guys on this thread to help you.

jspeeddemon - I've been thinking about you and Turbojack with the dual carb box. The front carb takes up the space where I want to mount the intercooler (integrated with carb box/ no duct losses) so I didn't see how I could design something for you guys. But, if you go tunnel ram, it is possible. If I look at the Edelbrock catalog it looks like the tunnel ram is about 6" higher than the dual quad manifold you have. This increases the envelope enough to do it. The good news is that this also allows for more intercooler core; the bad news is, the carb/intercooler box is big. The transition from compressor to intercooler would be similar to the one I have designed for the single carb setup. This is where the most of the losses are reduced.

mbam - if you're reading this, this design would work for your engine plans, if you used throttle bodies and injectors on a tunnel ram style manifold. The dual compressor makes the transition more of a challenge, but it can be done. With the huge compressors available now do you need dual?

Anyone feel like fabricating something? Send me an email.

Tom

TC
Since I am sitting on my cover & do not want to put hole in cover no tunnel ram for me. Richard lee uses the tunnel ram base & mounts his intercooler to the base. Question is do we need to be running 2-4's or could we get same HP with one big 4. I don't know.

Update on jetting. Jetting now 68 primarys, 83 secondarys, 6.5 PV in primary only. Motor runs good, I might be losing HP but am afraid to lean down the secondarys any more. I hate the word detonation. After I changed plugs last week I notice the plugs on the odd side1,3,5,7 (secondary) are running richer that the ones on even side 2,4,6,8(primary). Transom is clean all the time now. I think I am going to try & richen up the primarys to 69 or 70 & lean the secondarys same amount. What do you think??

Back on topic. Would I procharge again? Yes!!! Yes!!!

TURBOJACK - Since your carbs are side-mounted, are the primaries on the lean side of the engine and do you think that might explain the difference?

I'm glad to hear that everything is running well. Your jetting sounds so normal, but those are 390 or 450 CFM carbs aren't they? Normal jetting in those carbs runs between 51 and 57 primary and 30 to 34 secondary, so it does make sense.

I don't know at what point the single four runs out of gas, but two 83 jets flow as much as a single 117 jet. I think you just run out of fuel metering passage area; it becomes the jet, so two carbs is an easy answer.

Transom is clean, how's the cruise and mid range punch?

Holley 450 carbs are mounted sideways, Primarys are on the clean sides & secondarys on rich side.

Your explanation for jetting makes good sense. I did not look at it that way.

Cruise is good. I normally cruise at about 30-35 MPH @ 2400 rpms. When I punch it boat jump, & motor raps to 4K, then starts climbing from there.

Remember last call I had made to procharger they said they were at 68 primary, 80 secondarys. I think that would clean up the seconary side of plugs. I guess I need to do some more passes & check plugs.

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention, you explained that in your original post. Wow, that must be some ride! You're cruising slow; is the engine happy at 2400?

Listening to you and jspeeddemon makes me want to build what I just drew. A dual carb, dual intercooler setup for tunnel ram and the M4 blower. Reduced pressure losses and 800+ cubic inches of intercooler core!! I need a rich client to pay for the fabrication. I don't care if it goes on my boat, I just want to build it!

Tom

Turbojack the tunnel ram setup I am looking at, is the type that seperates at the runners, I will email you a picture. It is 7 inches where it splits, with the intake sitting on the floor. You'll find that you mainifold and the plenum box(the small box) in your setup measures 6.75 inches, I am sure you have a 1/4 inch there to work with. This will eliminate that poor transition down thru that crappy manifold and plenum. A local engine builder who builds sheet metal intakes, looked at the transition thru the box and his comment was"This motor wouldn't even run if it was naturally apsirated", I have to agree. We are trying to fix this and will be glad to share the formula.
Tomcat i would love to be able to do a project with you, let me hit the lottery first and I'll fund your project R and D.

jspeeddemon - I think I understand where you are splitting the tunnel ram base from the carb plenum(s) and that is your height number, but do you not need a decent sized carb plenum (more than the stepped box spacer)?

I like the tunnel ram idea. I know you are planning to keep the remote intercooler, but I like the idea of splitting the flow from the compressor into two intercoolers running down either side of the tunnel ram. Bring the air in the bottom of the intercoolers and out the top. By the time you have turned the air over into the carbs with this arrangement you have definitely raised the lid of the carb box ~6", but the pressure losses would be less and the balance of flow across the intercoolers would be better. Can fit about 800 cubic inches of core this way but the whole affair would be BIG.

Hurry up and win the lottery!;)