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Old 03-02-2012, 05:29 PM
  #231  
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I said I like threads LIKE this one.

Yes, there is not any valuable information on what caused the failure in this thread because everyone to busy bashing each other.

Yes, I agree there is some data missing. It would be nice if this thread got back to the point of finding out what caused the failure.

[QUOTE=stevesxm;3631800]
Originally Posted by Sunrocket24
1+ I have been following this thread because I am interested in what caused your engine failure. All the BS got annoying. I had the rebuilt engine in my boat blow two weeks after I bought it. I built my new engine myself (only 400HP) and has been running great. I have now have been bitten by the HP bug and want to build a new 500-600HP engine. I like threads like this because they have valuble information that people can use. I did most of my research for the engine I built from threads on here.





what valuable information ?

he reported all the mechanical specifications at teardown as within specification and tolerance.

he reported perfect temperatures and pressures while it was running.

he reported no performance issues and i'm not sure , unless i missed it somewhere, why he did the leakdown in the first place.

the assembly was done by a top flight professional and the owner reports not only standard maintainence but what some might consider excessive maintainence.

in spite of all that, the bearings are scrap as are a lot of other parts apparently.

i have not read a single definite identification of cause.

i have not read anything from anyone that has actually touched the parts that says " this is what i found that is wrong and with this wrong it was the proximate cause for the failure" or anything that even approaches that.

as i said 20 pages ago... nothing happens for no reason. and the chances of these " 8 things going wrong simultaneously" explanations are simply ridiculous. maybe a motor put together by a complete unskilled novice may have a several things done badly but not a well trained and well experienced professional.

so my advice would be to be quite careful what you think you are learning from this thread. i read it full of voodoo and folklore and space alien reasoning and seriously short of clinical and objective scientific analysis and conclusion.

it is also my personal opinion that there is some pretty important data missing from the time the motor left the builder to when it appeared in photo's here... but thats just my opinion.
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Old 03-02-2012, 07:41 PM
  #232  
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This thread needs put out of it's misery already . Sorry guys , ya can't get blood from a stone . I'm done..............
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Old 03-03-2012, 03:16 AM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by dbkski
Mr. ROTAX454 - "Oak leaf...." Seems like major butt covering.

Now let's learn something and quit acting like a bunch of jerkoffs.
Originally Posted by ROTAX454
Mr. dbkski, For the record I do not personally know either of the two parties involved in this disagreement. That includes never speaking to either one of them.

In the future, do some research before making a senseless statement on a respected forum.
Wow. Got busy and missed all this fun.

Let's is a contraction for "let us". Us meaning everyone.
New sentence. New paragraph. This denotes a new and separate
thought. I singled no one out with the "jo" statement. However I
may have had the chief antagonist in mind when I wrote it.

ROTAX454 - I PM'd you but you did not read it or chose to not
respond. I will respond here and hope it does not piss you off
further. My only problem with your post was I think you wanted to
say "extend an olive branch" instead of "Oak leaf of friendship". I
believe you are naive to think that these two parties will ever get
together again. In a normal situation then yes your thought would
be proper. Not here. I don't like to quote entire posts especially if
they contain multiple thoughts, questions, or pictures. In my case
I accidentally erased some words that I think confused and upset
ROTAX454. I should have seen that. My butt covering comment is
squarely on Dean. He replied with overly emotional posts that were
not germane to the questions of failure analysis. Does knowing,
talking to, or doing business with these two individuals matter here?
What research do you think I should do? About what?

Originally Posted by yschmidt
because it took 23 months to get it back after dropping the motors off, and it showed up Sept. 17, 2010 (pulled to have motors out Oct. 11, 2008).
I can not and will not accept a 23 month wait time for engines.
Unacceptable. Unprofessional. Why is this not stressed? In a normal
situation it would be stupid for a customer to go anywhere else but
back to the original builder, but that is not the case is it? Have you
guys not read the posts and emails from the Schmidts? Do you not
feel the anguish, hurt, and now anger? Do you really believe they
can get together again and work things out? I don't. I want to learn
why these failures happen.

I don't think Mr. Schmidt has been above board with all of his actions.
I think Gellner Engineering INC. is an excellent outfit. That is why
this situation is so troubling to me.

* Disclaimer *
I have only had the time to read up to page 18. I will try to finish
tomorrow. My thoughts and opinions pertain to those pages only.
I hope there is some good news later in this thread.

Last edited by dbkski; 03-03-2012 at 03:14 PM.
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Old 03-03-2012, 09:56 AM
  #234  
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It's a rainy Saturday and I've read the whole thread from front to back so I'm gonna make one post and any of you that don't like it or me is fine, but I think I have a couple of things to offer that have not been established yet.

The whole problem here goes back to the 18 to 21 months that the engines took to build in the first place and all the additional bleeding comes up afterward.

I've been right where Yankey is only with another builder (as have many others on this board) and my reason for not going back to the guy who got me the first time was that I paid for service and specific things the first time, with hard earned money, waited a long time to get them back, and while I didn't wait 18 to 21 months like Yankey, it was obvious I had been led down the primrose path, when it wasn't right, so I wasn't going back for another dose.

I think I had the same builder as the other poster here that pulled his engine 11 times before he got it right, and there is another thread here about that if it was the same guy. I'm not going to live long enough to pull my stuff 11 times nor do I have the patience, but I'm glad he got justification. I chose another course, not to dwell on the bad experience, found a really good builder, spent a lot more money and found happiness with that builder, whom I trust.

Many of you here have found that same happiness with the builder in question and he has an excellent reputation in the high performance world, but that doesn't make him a Saint.

Anyway, I have had the pleasure of knowing Yankey over the last 2 years while he was living in SC and since most here don't know Yankey, I'll let you know that while he's not a Saint either, you have totally under estimated not only his excellent character, but also his ability, knowledge and above all the fact that he is as straight a shooter as ever drew a breath, so I don't blame him for being suspicious and wanting to know if he got less than he paid for or luckily in his case, the motors didn't grenade, but it wouldn't have been much longer til they would have. He explained why he tore the motors down and also, if any of you that have cut him down did know Yankey, you would then know that he is highly educated in the mechanical field, is very mechanically inclined in his own right (he doesn't build championship race engines like so many of you do) but from what I've seen of his abilities, he could, and once he decided he was throwing good money after bad and took the bull by the horns the work he has re-done on the boat himself takes a back seat to no one. As a matter of fact, of the work that I have seen that he has performed himself on the boat it is obvious that he is somewhere between a fanatic and an obsessive compulsive when it comes to doing things right.

I don't know about any secret header leak or any reversion or any oil pan full of water, but I do know that about every time he tried to go boating there would be a minor issue and each time after some investigation, he would find something that was not remotely what you would expect from a "world champion, world reknown, eat, sleep, breathe horsepower engine builder" and you certainly would have to think that in 18 to 21 months of build time, that both engines would not be experiencing the same identical problem, and I doubt seriously that both of them would have had the same issues coordinated simultaneous unless there were a problem in the engine build process, as I don't think all or any headers were leaking, etc. like the CIA Tkach has proposed, but until his source can be exposed, we'll never know.

Yankey provided all the technical clearance data and obviously most if not all of that was correct, so it appears that the assembly for the most part was proper, but don't you have to wonder about the slag in the ports and some of the other stuff he has pointed out, not to mention all of the bearings, and I think some of the methodology regarding undersizing or oversizing bearings, and the cams and rollers being scarred up. Thats 2 engines not one engine experiencing what was going to be a catastropic failure, and from that some of the manufacturing experts and some of the bearing experts deemed that the cranks being cut the way they were and the use of a particular bearing were a recipe for what was getting ready to happen.

Many if not all of you have missed the fact that he has 2 engines, not 1 engine that identically have the same issues, so that in itself leads me to believe that it can be narrowed down to eliminate just about everything to who made the parts selection, who did the machining, and probably secondarily who did the assembly.

If Yankey picked out the parts, did the machine work, was satisfied with the parts and machine work and did the assembly, then it is all Yankey's fault. I don't think he did any of that.

If someone else picked out the parts, did the machine work and was satisfied with that, completed the assembly and was satisfied with that and both motors are just before blowing up for the exact same reason, in a very short time span, and if the parts are not failing due to poor manufacturing or misuse, then someone must have made a mistake with some part of the machining, parts selection and or build process or a combination of all 3.

Most likely the whole thing could have been rectified without one word on a public forum, except the fact that it took somewhere between 18 and 21 months to get it wrong the first time, so it would be legitimate to think it would take another 18 to 21 months to "maybe" get it right the next time.

I couldn't live with that from anyone, let alone "the world champion", and I think Yankey feels the same, and like so many of us who have gotten something a little different than we expected, he came here for information and consolation and he did make a valid attempt at avoiding every poster who asked who the builder was. I even had to look at the pictures more than once to see the name on the crank, and if he put his name on it then it must have gotten his seal of approval.

Mr Raylar, your post was excellent, down to earth, and understandable and I appreciate your wealth of knowledge, as was the info provided by MER from whatever source it was derived, and several others contributed good, valuable information early on, before it bacame a $hit slinging affair.

Mr Tkach, you were helping up until you obligated yourself to buy the cranks then decided you didn't want to buy the cranks, and you tried to make Yankey the scapegoat by saying he wouldn't send you pictures. This thread is full of pictures of the cranks and you said in writing you would take the cranks, and all you've done from that point is to turn this into a $hit slinging match. How about this, "the cranks were turning blue and I don't think I want to buy them" would have sufficed.

Yankey, I know you are considering taking a similar path that I did with another builder and a alternative parts selection and I truly hope that you can find renewed excitement once it is back on the water. With the beautiful work you have done with the rigging, not to mention what a great hull you have, it will be great with reliable power. We sure miss you and your wife and I hope you will come back to SC and visit with us this summer and you know you are always welcome to stay at my place and to use my boat.

To the rest of the Gellner supporters of which there are many, and no doubt the accomplishments are many, many, and to Mr. Gellner, your reputation precedes you 99.44% of the time, but since I have been an eye witness to what Yankey disassembled, along with some of the other earlier issues he found immediately after your build, (whether you think he should have disassembled your work or not and that lets you off the hook) I will say that all the praise, and accomplishment in the world can be torn down by one bad job and the far reaching bad rap you can get if you don't do the right thing and rectify it to the customer's satisfaction, and from what I have seen, this is one time that the customer got short changed. It may never happen again and it may have never happened before, but only knowing for sure what I can see, and what I have seen while Yankey was in SC, he did not get what he bargained for. You have made numereous statements on here so I have one question for you. Why did it take 18 to 21 months to do the build?

I have had more than one problem, error in judgment, or outright f***up in my field of expertise over the last 35 years, and I think the only reason I'm still in business in today's economy is because I always bit the bullet no matter the cost to make the job right and the customer as happy as possible. For that reason, I still have most if not all of those same customers.

I thank the members for the opportunity to say my peace.
The floor is yours.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:48 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by thirdchildhood
Mike, there were lots of close-ups of the crank journals and one clearly looks blued. It's not the chamfering that ruined them, it was probably heat. A blued journal, AFAIK, has lost it's case hardening. Those cranks are done and you know it and your offer to buy them was BS.
thirdchild you hit the nail on the head

Originally Posted by mike tkach
i did not realize the engine had 20 hrs,i thaught it had a lot more,the journal that is blueing tells the story,not enough clearance,either bearing clearance,or rod side clearance.very lucky it did not spin a bearing.
Originally Posted by mike tkach
#12 sure looks blue to me,it appears as if the oil could not exit the journal,so the oil boils between the journal and the bearing.am i seing it wrong,or is the journal turning blue?
Originally Posted by yschmidt
The one jornal at themain is very slightly discolored, the picture makes it look worse, but you are right.
Originally Posted by mike tkach
.bye the way,il take those cranks for 200.each.
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