THE CONTINUING SAGA OF Jayl13
 

last night i went over to help Jay with motor#1. All i can say is that this motor has suffered the same fate as motor#2. after trying to crank it over a couple of times it clunked and Jay immediately stopped cranking it. i pulled out the #5 spark plug and to no surprise found moisture in the cylinder. after draining the oil out of the motor, yes, there was water in the motor.
the same "friend" who did the other risers did these also. to make matters worse as we were starting to pull all the plugs and spray fogging fluid in the cylinders it started to pour. right now we're stuck till friday since Jay is waiting for the rest of the parts to finish it up. when we pulled the risers off the gasket itself was wet on both sides and it wasn't even crushed or anything. the riser was bolted on to the manifold. it seems as though the riser never mated correctly to the manifold. other than the "friend" factor, is there any reason they wouldn't seat properly?
has anyone ever had this kind of problem where the risers wouldn't seal?
i'm just trying to cover all angles. to me putting on risers is pretty cut and dry. unfortunately i didn't do the job the first time and right now Jay's biggest fear is that when we put them back on they'll leak again. any suggestions would be helpful.
thanks to everyone

Russ

Get some extra gaskets, they are cheap. Put them all on and then take them off and inspect them to make sure they are all crushed. The new ones you are going to get are much thicker then the old ones. Make sure you torque them all down then retorque until they stop tightening. After I run them for a heat up and cool down I go back and recheck them all. Good luck you guys.

Jon

make sure the riser bolts are not bottoming out in the exhaust manifold, this can be a problem if the risers / minifolds have been resurfaced to aggressively or if you get a little water/rtv/grease what ever in the holes causeing a hydro lock of the bolt

Merc also uses odd bolt lengths in a lot of places eg, the riser bolts on the old style risers are 5 3/4 " not 6 ", don't know the length of the short ones

whats up Jon
Jay has some brand new gaskets coming in from BAM today
the gaskets we pulled off last night were actually new as well
they don't look used at all. i told him we could probably reuse them but he feels more comfortable with brand new, straight out of the package gaskets. can't blame him at this point.

ursus
today he's ordering brand new mounting hardware. i have a feeling the bolts that were being used may have contributed to the leaking, but its hard to tell. the "friend" never resurfaced the risers and manifolds which is also a contibuting factor to the leakage

i'm just trying to cover all bases here. Jay is a little fed up so i told him i'd post for him today. try to get some advice. hey, what are friends for:) thanks for the tips guys

Russ

even tho the friend never resurfaced them I seemed to recall Jay mentioning buying used risers on a previous thread. Sometimes if the risers are kinda ruff/corroded folks will take 1/16 of an inch off them to clean them up, this can cause the bolts to bottom out, depends on the manifold etc, just thot of this when you mentioned the gaskets were not crushed

I siliconed mine. Also found that two of the bolts were too long and were bottoming out.

didn't he make those risers??? did he/you anyone ever check to see if they got tweeeked during the welding??? and WHY,,,if you knew he f'ed up the one side,,,,,did you check the other????

If I remember correctly, Jay is using Mercs stock stainless steel risers. They have the short bolts holding them on. I know Merc had many problems with these leaking and stopped making them. I would definetely check the surface especially on the stainless riser using a straight edge to make sure it is not warped. I hear the leaking problems were due to the rate at which the cast iron expands when heated vs. the way the stainless expands.

Scott

yes they are the stainless risers. we're going to take a straight edge and a feeler guage to check it out. i think merc says there can't be anymore than .003 difference for every inch. they were purchased used as well. supposedly they have really low hours on them too. i don't remember the exact number.

what Jay did to the risers would in no way effect the sealing at the manifold. he did the custom work on the exhaust side. besides, all he did was put a tube in the exhaust side of the riser to extend it to the transom. last night was the first night i was over in a while. motor#1 ran rather well at first, then it developed a backfire through the carb. i never thought to check the risers first because the motor did run to a certain extent. motor#2 never even ran. #5 cylinder filled with h2o while trying to start it.
thats why motor#1 wasn't checked right away. it did run

Russ

What cylinders were wet/filled on motor #1....or didn't you get that far yet??

The middle cylinders will ususally be the ones to fill when you have a riser leak problem. (for example: #5 on motor 2 that was full).

I hate to say this but...............
If #1 ran good then developed a backfire, it might have rounded a cam lobe.
Over last 20+ years I broke in 100 cams and never had a problem. Then 2 years ago I had 2 different 454s smoke a cam lobe during cam break in. weird

I hope not cause Jay sure needs a break!
DS

hey whats up Mark
i only pulled the plug on #5 and it had moisture on it
after that we drained the oil out of the block and you could
see the water in it
then it started raining so we had to stop there
also when Jay pulled the risers off there was water in the manifold
he did drain them first before he yanked them, so watcha gonna do
how much bad luck can one dude have?

Zanie, i sure hope he didn't wipe a cam lobe. i never even thought about that. over the weekend he had the motor running fine and all of the sudden it backfired. the more i think about it, it is very possible thats what happened there. i'm sure the h2o didn't help in matters


Russ

Did you hear the motor pinging before it started back firing? Maybe the cylinder with water was detonating... as it would with water taking up combustion space... and that is why the backfire on intake stroke? Easier solution than wiping a lobe. Did he run the motor at low rpms upon initial startup? Why else would a lobe go away?
I would also double check the cleanliness of the ignition system. What this poor guy has been through I could see where there may be grease on the rotor and inside cap cause leakage.. backfires.

Hopin for simple solution.....

BT :cool:

BT,
what you suggested is actually the same exact thing i thought once we found the water. i checked the cap and rotor and they are both clean. we can only wait till tomorrow to see what happens. all the parts should be in today and we're going to wrench till we get these things running

Russ

okay I feel as though it is time to attack this ***** and get this freakin pig running and running right
Yes I have had a horrible ride with this thing but god damn it this freakin thing is going in the water this weekend , Hell I have plan B too (little aluminum paddle)
Now yes engine #1 that was running had water in Cyl #5
so basically these risers were not down properly.
They were used yes, only had about 15 or so hours on them. They have absolutely NO corrosion at all, in any of the jackets that is visible around any of the ports, edges and flanges that I can see.
The water was puddled at the #5 cylinder which makes me 99% sure it was a riser gasket problem
Okay with that said, I dont believe a cam lobe is wiped cause if you listen to the exhaust side of this, you dont hear it stumble or what not at all
Now with that said YES I could use a freakin break!!!!
And a big one to boot, I have 1000 or just under HP waiting to go for one wild ride and im foolin around with this like a moron.
I have now fogged out all cylinders, sprayed fogging fluid down intakes to prevent any upper head damage
I have drained oil out of each block, yanked oil filters
Installed new oil filters and lowered then under the oil pans in the bilge to let the oil in the lines flow into oil filter to catch as much of the water yoohoo mix that I can.
Im going to fill up engines with oil, prime oil pumps, get the oil moving, and then drain the engines again and start from scratch.
Before installing all plugs, Im going to fill with fresh oil again, and start engines up with no plugs in it, sort of get everything moving, crank, pistons, wrist pins, cam, timing chains ect.
once I get engine moving and I DONT HEAR ANYTHING BAD, Then next step is to try this BS all over again
The one problem that im nervous about is this
How in the freakin hell can you check the riser gaskets before it is too late?
From seeing this setup and experiencing the detrimental outcome of this wonderful BS idea that mercury has, it is a shame to think if they were casted a hair different with a small sleeve in the exhaust passage on the manifold that the riser would slip DOWN ON and then gasket and bolts, this would prevent about 85-90% of this crap for all of us that cant afford 6 grand in headers
Well it is back to the drawing board at this point and work at it and see what happens.
from there I hope to be out on Sunday for a test drive to see what this thing can do
Thanks to all that have put up with my BS and long ass posts and the ones that have offered to lend a wrench (Tommy V, Russ ect)
we WILL get this thing done, it WILL run, and it WILL be solid when Im done with it even if it is not until next summer that it does run.
IT WILL RUN
(then it is time to upgrade to a bigger boat)
:D
Jason

Jay hang in there. It will be worth it. We all know it's worth it in the end.

GO GET EM :)

Best of luck and just remember to double check each others work.
I have made a mistake assuming a friend tightened everything
it did not cost me as much as your agravation so far.
but it still stings :(

Hell guys I just want to get out there
any one have a row boat for sale?
have a 1 ton truck to pull it so I dont think the weight would be an issue
can get a nitrous bottle and hook it up to a 9.9 hp no problems.
Jason

Im installing some used gils this weekend and sure hope i dont run into the troubles you have had. I have only seen 1 mention here of using hio temp silicone on the sealed surfaces. Wouldn't this be a wise idea?? sj

Merc used to spec Loctite 510 sealent for the old style gaskets with the orange line. The latest gasket is a graphite composite and should not use any sealer. It is kind of silver metallic looking like the exhaust gasket.

That is the one Marc at BAM sent me (being delivered today)
I had gotten the old ones with the orange line on it from the local marina last week and they looked like they had sat on the shelf for about 9 years
From what I hear these silver gaskets crush down when torquing the riser/elbows down and conform to the surfaces better than the older ones with the orange lines on them.
The bulletin states 33 ft lbs on each bolt (god knows how to get a torque wrench into the back 2 bolts though???)
Ill have to get some free time and get the manifolds and risers cleaned, check for level surfaces with straight edge and feeler gagues and take it from there.
this SUCKS ASS!
Jason

I have often thot about adding NOS to the 6 hp Suzuki on the Zodiac, it does 18 mph @ 5000 right now, gonna change to a bravo 1, 4 blade, thinking I could get 25 out of it maybe :D :D :D

Jason,

I too have the merc ss risers. This may not be right but this is what I do:

I use a 1/2 drive u-joint socket snap on that will torue the back two with no problem. It is the type that the socket is built into the u-joint.

I use ss hardware bolts washers and lock washers. I torque to 30 ft lbs and check that the lock washers are compressed.

I do use permatex super black.

I do not use the barr type gray aftermarket gaskets. I beleive with heat these gaskets will burn up and cause water to leak into your motor. I believe cheap gaskets that burn up with heat are a leading source of engine failure.

I buy the best high temp gaskets I can find.

Unfortunally i have had my risers off many times. With good gaskets and a good seal it is really hard to seperate the risers from the exhaust manifold.

Good luck

And dont forget flat tappet cam break-in rules, no idle time, 2000-2500 rpm for a half hour. Seems like lots of people did-in cams this spring. Good Luck.

Yeah... what formula31 said. Sometimes hard to achieve +2k rpm when trying to get things going... but very inportant to get the valves moving and lubricated. Otherwise... new cam gone. You didn't let either engine idle yet did you Jay?

BT :cool:

Jay if you use the universal type sockets your torque numbers will be a little off. I would say add about another 5 pounds on the ones with the universal.

Jon

set torque is equal to distance from center of drive socket to center of TW handle....the add any deflection forward of the center or minus of the center of the drive. so ST=fastner torque/TW distance (+- deflection) *TW distance....so adding an extension 90 deg in any plane will not change toque...any other deflections will. any questions??? just ask...i just had to write tranning and global G8D on this topic! so.....don't worrie about it! LOL

Okay Kudo's to Marc at BAM for getting me this stuff that is probably next to impossible to get.
All the new bolts have loc tite on them, the new gaskets are like thick mushy recycled metal, very soft and shiny.
Now I see how these gaskets can conform to the surface of the manifold and seal properly in comparison to the old gaskets with the orange stripes on them and the fire ring in the middle.
I think I can get a torque wrench on the back bolts with a universal so Ill just add a bit of pressure and take them up to about 35-36 Ft/Lbs instead of the mercury recommended 33 to compensate for the universal swivel sockets.
I get what Joe is saying on this verbage but how can you compensate for something that can continuously move like the swivel sockets?
going looser = problem
going too tight = problem
going 2-3 ft lbs over to compensate for swivel socket = probably right no way to tell for sure.
Anyway, Like I said I can see how these gaskets will work out just fine.
So now lets see if we can get this all done tonight and tomorrow morning and get this bizatch in the water on Sunday SUNDAY SUNDAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
Stay tuned for further developments
Now back to you .................................................

i use ANTISLIZE....not loctite....**** i've had to heli-coil studs in the past...always use antislize on any exhaust system bro!..ps...any time u use a lub/anti friction substance or clamping focre is increase as is intimate contact with the same bolt torque! ummmmm joe knows fastners!!!LOL

Corrected torque depends on the angle of offset from straight on with the torque wrench. For any angle of offset of the socket extension, the corrected torque will be large than the straight torque by the factor of 1/cosine theta where theta is the angle of offset. For angles of 10 or 15 degrees the correction is not that big. The biggest factor is the type of thread lubricant you have as you torque them down. Probably torque to only 75% with Neversieze on the thread. Best to draw down bolts progressively and criss cross pattern or something recommended by mfgr. Then go back and retorque after the gaskets have settled down after first warm up of engine.