Rear Mount Counter Clockwise Starters
 

New Engines/New Starters, we had checked off on those parts. However, one of the first two failed immediately. Another new starter was installed and has worked as expected. That is, except for cranking RPM, which was slower than either of the two new original starters.

Subject to research, it was decided to up-grade to a more expensive starter believed to be an improvement. However, we find that starter gear to NOT be "spiral" machine cut. The gear is machined to a point, equal cut machined, each side of the tooth. Therefore, though the tooth/shaft is driven in by a very strong solenoid, into the flywheel ring gear. The problem occurs when the pointed started gear "centers" on the flywheel gear. The starter gear then spins/grinds because of not being engaged.

The first set was part number 808011-A4, the second set was 808011-A05 (FYI, 808011-A05 has nylon reduction gears. Perhaps the first backfire will toast those gears)

Back at the drawing board, we are looking for a 3 +/- HP, reduction starter with a spiral cut gear......Suggestions ???

Fixx
 

did you install a race mount between the transmission and block? If so then you need to machine the bell housing's..need to take off .250'' so the starter engauges all the way..

Tiltons crank, or the Merc. is a dependable piece at a lower price. Tilton cranks my 604's like toys the Merc slower but they are pretty durable and half as expensive.

Tilton's HAD been overlooked, though we now believe Tilton has the spiral cut gear. Also, the spec. looks like a good option. And, Tilton is thought to be a quality product. The Mercury is thought to be those parts numbers listed above.

SkiDoc, do you know/have the parts numbers for your Tilton's ??? Surfing their web-site pictures, several models are shown, none of which is exactly familiar.

MrFixxall, there is a race plate between the bell housing and engine block. The bell housing is steel, the aperture is round and the starter body is a slip fit. The bell housing was relieved the .250" . The flywheel/flexplate was also dialed indicator set to <.010 and dowel staked. The starters were then installed and tested before the engines were installed.

Ironically, the Merc numbers shown , never once failed to engage. Only one 808011-A4 failed premature and the 808011-A05 is slower. However, both numbers appear to have spiral cut gears. For other applications, either of those Merc. numbers should work fine.

IMHO, these engines prefer to be spun at Max. RPM untill the dry sump pumps have oil pressure. Then, while spinning, add ignition and the engines are running. The usual spin, throttle pump, spin to start doesn't seem to work well or in theory safe. Safe being relative to flooding or back-fire. (soaking)

Cat,
We use the standard Tilton rear mount marine starter. For low compression, this is all you need. We never have any issues but sent them back once in 15 yrs to be checked/rebuilt. I used to work with Stanley Reyes , Tilton Engineering (805) 688-2353); he was very helpful.
Ben

Ben,

I have a call into Kirk Skafuel, Mr.Reyes, replacement. Thanks for the support....Will advise as more is known.

Thanks !

The bad news, not only is Mr. Reyes gone, so is Tilton's starter, for this application. Mr. Skafuel stated the market was only 5-6/yr., they discontinued rear, top mount, CCW Marine starters, 6 months ago.

The question was asked about Summitt Racing showing their subject starters. The answer was; Summitt hasn't updated their web, sorry !

Cat,
The Tilton 454 type rear mount reverse rotation starters show as "in stock" at Jegs. Since when you give up so easy? :)
Ben


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Ben,

Thank you very much, we will try that !

Look, when you get to be my age, you can give up also. Till then, back to work. LoL.... I'm sure glad you found these, we were working on a new pull rope design.

Subject to weather, would you be available to go to Texoma, Friday or this week-end ? Scott is the Hi-Port manager, whom may arrange for a facimily of a chase boat, or Leon may be an option.

fixx
 

Hey,,we switched to 16volt battery in the race car,,man did that thing wing the starter over..just a thought..

Cat,
Can I get a rain check for Texoma? I am committed to my other bad habit...competition shooting on both Saturday and Sunday.

Ben,

Yes, on the rain check, we would be honored to have you anytime !

Speaking of shooting, I heard there was a cutting and shooting in Dallas. Ya !, some Guy "Cut" around the corner and "Shot" up the alley. Corny or what ?

Good Luck....Beat em !.....

We wondered about 16 VDC batteries. However, without trying such, the question of alternators, ignition and etc. comes to mind. The starter circuit could be isolated and all else could be regulated with a Voltage Regulator (VR). However, the load calculations may be a bit complex.

Your race car is probably using a Magneto and no Alternator ?? Do you use a remote battery charger between starts ? Do you use a VR and/or diodes to protect the gauges ? Subject to the gauges seeing 16 VDC, is accuracy an issue ?

I know, to many questions, interesting solution....Thanks !

These are awesome starters that we have sold for a number of years and have become the choice of many of our engine builders. Here's an option http://www.hardin-marine.com/p-13240...-rotation.aspx

We just got two, and they look like they will work.

If they are API brand sent by Hardin, send them back, I had 2 that went bad in their first outing. Cost me about a 4 hr idle back to the dock one day and then about a 2 hour idle back to the dock with Eddie on board.

Thanks for the heads up, do you know why they failed ?

I know you suggested the 808011-A4 as being your preferred choice. You favor those because of their performance and price, a hard combination to argue against. You also mentioned the Tilton's as spinning with more RPM. Ben found the Tilton's, but it bothers me that Tilton has stopped production for the marine version part number.

We ordered two from CP Performance, AKA Hardin, they came packaged with a .50" spacer for shimming the long starter nose away from starter gear interference. Measurements found the starter gear would engage when the bendix shaft was fully extended. However, when actually installed, starter engagement was hit and miss. That was the learning point of spiral cut gears. The subject starters have a cone cut gear tooth end, blunt enough to center on the flat tooth of the flywheel starter ring.

The reaction was to send them back. However, first the manufacturer appealed for trying a .125" shim ILO the .50" and try it again. The .125" shims were over-nighted, installed and tested several times without fail.

The CP/Hardin starter does turn the engine faster than the 808011-A4, which is faster than the 808011-AO5. The 808011-AO5 is too slow and we did have a failure, a new 808011-A4 .

The CP/Hardin starter OEM did admit the subject gear cut design was inferior to the spiral cut, but his gear supplier wanted a truck load order for spiral cut gears. (quote)Whereas, the present design has worked for him, for 15 years, he has not justified the special commitment.

What do we do now ? Hardin, do you have any comments ?

Ill get the last one that failed and get the part number off of it. Didnt bother to return it. Went to start and it enguaged the flywheel. Something would spin but was toast?