Jeysson,

Would you be happy with around 450-460hp? If so why not closely follow the "330 on roids" build? Granted you have mag motors, but he used 496 exhaust and a custom grind cam(you could still use flat tappet) and get some decent pistons along with L-29 vortec heads? Would be a lot cheaper than the Brodix combo. The larger oval ports(larger than PP) and heart shaped 99cc comb chambers would be perfect with the correct pistons. Have block bore notched if you can swing it and recondition rods and cranks. Personally I strongly considered this build prior to deciding to get out of control with a 496 lol.

The way I look at things is this. For about 100 bucks more per set, you can have the H Beam. So in this guys case, he's out of pocket 200 bucks. What does 200 bucks get you these days? in a 34ft scarab, 200 bucks wont get you thru a Saturday of running on the lake. I am sure if you ask any of the "pro" engine builders on here, if they had a choice to use the Scat H beam, or the Scat I beam, they would go with the H beam.

I guess everyones budget is different. When I was going thru my engines, every step of the way I was faced with the dilemma of which way to go as far as parts choice/cost. I'm the cheapest bastard around, and don't like spending money. I also exceeded my initial budget. But, what I kept telling myself, is, if it meant I had to sit a few weekends out on boating, to have some stout engines, that's the sacrifice I'll make. I didn't want to cut corners by using lesser quality valve springs, weaker rods, standard head gaskets, cheaper pistons, cheaper lifters, etc. I could have saved some money by using some budget pistons instead of the JE blower pistons, kept the GM rods, used cheaper comp lifters instead of the Morel Race, comp springs instead of the Tool Room's, compostion head gaskets instead of cometics, head bolts instead of studs, main bolts instead of studs, standard drive plates instead of heavy duty, tube coolers instead of plate bellhousing coolers, the list goes on. And keep in mind everything is x2 with a twin engine.

As far as machine work on your blocks, don't cut corners there. You'll want to magniflux and psi test the blocks, have them tanked, decks checked, line hone checked, sonic checked, head bolt threads checked since in a mark iv they are known to rot away in marine engines. Your gonna need rotating assembly balanced, crank possibly polished or cut depending on its condition, pistons pin fitted, cam bearings replaced, freeze plugs replaced, and so on.

I am not trying to scare you. But I am telling you from my experiances, and many boating friends experiances, do it right the first time. The guys you see with engines that don't live 20 hours, is because they cut corners. Machine work is HUGELY important. If you have "x" amount of dollars to work with, start by investing it in a proper rebuild on the short block. Worry about performance heads and things like that, after you have some solid foundations to build off of.

The scat I beams would be way more than he ever needs. No disrespect, but I don't listen to every "marine engine builder" on here unless I have dealt with them personally. Everyone has their preference in parts. You don't see a rash of Broken rods, especially these on here or anywhere else for that matter. Spending $200 extra is likely going to just drain this guys account at this power level.

Regarding valvetrain, yes quite a few respected guys here will tell you to buy the best you can afford and that makes perfect sense. But that is the most highly stressed part of a BBC, even more so obviously in a marine application.

The problem with this site is everyone seems to recommend overbuilding everything and that's absurd. And I disagree that H beam is always a superior design. Oliver parabolic I beams are one of the all time best rod designs. Not an H beam. Most failures are from detonation and improper assembly or Broken valves. I've seen quite a few rod bolt failures at the local machine shop from high end boat builds, but never a rod just letting go because it didn't cost $600+.

Applying the spend more because it's better logic to every aspect of a marine build at this level is poor advice IMO. We aren't heading to the moon here. Again, valvetrain, couldn't agree more.

I hear you all. 450-460hp......nah, I'm looking for 500+. What are your opinions on keeping stock heads for now and upgrading/rebuilding bottom end and valve train? I know I would still have to work on heads to get those back to par. I just hate the thought of putting new valves and cam components in these heads just to switch them out for new heads at a later date. I have to put all this down on paper and calculate some ballpark figures for all the different angles. Or better yet, callig Bob.

Call bob

Trust me, a Scat I beam, is not anywhere near the quality of a Oliver I beam. I'm not gonna get into a pissin match with you on every thread.

Please show me where I said that? This isn't a pissing match, it's logic. H beams aren't logical. I speaking In terms of basic design I beam vs H beam and applying said types to this guys 500hp goal. Obviously H beams are not needed. I must be on glue.

I agree. The I beam will work fine for what he's doing. Fast forward to 3:00 for a little rpm

You have your recipes, and I have mine. its all good Heres my rect port H beamed 454's http://youtu.be/nNzqL_RJlG0?t=3m

Yeah no worries,it is all good. Different strokes! That's a sick Fountain you got there. Is that an older justin Bieber in the red shades?

That's "sommerfliesby" from Oso . He's got a 37 Active Thunder

Lol

This is just headed for disaster, budget builds are just that , budget. In the end you`re going to kick your self for not spending a few extra buck and doing it right with the right parts.
If you save a few buck on not having the block checked and tested and it ends up taking a $hit how much have you saved? Nothing, going cheap ends up costing more in the end everytime.

You guys need to really define "right parts". If by saying this you mean he absolutely needs a 4340 crank and the best rods along with 2618 pistons(500hp or below), then again, poor advice. If by saying he needs the right parts, and you are implying he should spend as much as he can on quality valvetrain components that are proven, then yes, this is good advice. Personally I believe in the scorpion marine roller rockers & pushrods(best they have) isky tool room springs, isky locks and retainers, morel lifters, rollermaster billet timing chain. That's my "recipe" for a stout valvetrain.

Why are you using the analogy of not getting the block checked?? That's basic, better do it or else. Maybe over the winter he will be able to fit some of these better valvetrain parts into the budget.

I think his Stock forged reciprocating assemblies(minus the stock pistons) are good for what he's wanting to do with the addition of ARP hardware(ARP 2000) and realistic max RPM. Again the SCAT I beams would be a huge step up, but probably not needed. Guys here have been beating the piss out of wimpy 3/8 330 cast rods with the ARP 8740 bolts for years in big old heavy boats with absolutely spectacular results. His real concern should be Valvetrain durability.

Borgie, you joined here june of this year. I been on here almost 10 years, plus quite a bit of boating before that, and engines before that. I can tell you, that there ARENT many guys beating up 3/8 GM Truck rods in 38 Top guns, 42 Fountains, and 38 Scarabs. Tell me, who's running the 3/8 Truck rods to 5500RPM or better? Any examples?

I personally know 2 local guys that have put GM rods thru the oil pan destroying their block in the process at 6000ish RPM. Busted right at the fastener boss.

The 454 MAG does have a good bottom end. That's why its more desireable than a 330HP 454. Good foundation to build off of. You're absolutely right, in that the stock 7/16 dimple Rods will be plenty for his build. And yes, the I beam scats would be a nice upgrade, and personally I would go that route. To do the rebuild properly, the stock pistons need to be removed from the rod, new bolts installed, rods resized, refinished, etc. I just would spend the few extra bucks and get new rods. Back in the day, a new set of rods was big money, and everyone rebuilt the GM rods. Today, good aftermarket rods can be had for next to nothing. Engine builders like Teague, Ateco, and many others, have a stock pile of GM stock 7/16 rods leftover just for that reason.

Yes, the valvetrain is very important. I run the morel lifters, isky springs, good pushrods, etc. Nobody is suggesting this guy needs a set of carillo rods, and a bryant billet crank.

I guess what I am trying to suggest, to the original poster, is, to be thorough. Everyone pages thru magazines, and everyone wants to assemble their own engines on a budget. Including myself. My recent rebuilds, everything was fine with the engines. I had decent leakdown, good compression, they were good running engines. But they had blowers on them for many years, and felt it was time. There was a lot more to machining than just getting a bore/hone. With new pistons, rings, rods, polishing my crank, boring, honing, line hone, balancing rotating assembly, surfacing the decks, pin fitting pistons, file fitting rings, new timing chains, freeze plugs, cam bearings, magnufluxing , and so on, by the time the shortblock was bagged and on the shelf, I had 3 grand in each one. All work was done on a Rottler CNC . Could I have saved a little money by reusing my 7/16 GM rods with ARP wave loc bolts, maybe. But at the 800HP level, I wasn't gonna chance it.



My point being, is that to do a proper rebuild, machining and tolerances is crucial, and its not cheap. Nobody is telling this guy he needs internals that can support 1000HP. But, I am telling him, if he isn't thorough with the parts he has, or is using, it wont matter if its 300HP or 600HP, it wont live a long life.

You state that you believe in the scorpion rockers, and other parts. Have you used these successfully in your builds? I had a set of crane gold rockers stamped 1985. They just got retired in 2011. In their lifetime they've seen .630 lift and 6000RPM a lot, been in a marine engine their whole life. I went back with another set of them. Because I believed in them from my experience.

If he truly wants to build a 500+HP 460ci engine, why not build a engine that can spin 5500-6000RPM? With his cranks, good set of rods, good machine work, good valvetrain, theres no reason it couldn't do it without breaking a sweat. If he ends up using those Brodix heads and some hyd roller cams, he might be surprised at how much power they make, and how long they can last. Don't forget to upgrade the stock oil coolers and getting rid of the restrictive merc oil lines wouldn't be a bad move.

a person would be wise to listen to the information joe[mild thunder]offers up here on oso,i call him mr research,he has been doing this boat thing for a long time.his little 468s make good power and stay togeather,and beleive me he does not baby them.i know a little about those engines!

Yes, I have not been a member here for long, but I have followed this site and others for quite some time now. This isnt my first rodeo either. When discussing the rod issue, I wasnt insinuating that anyone was spinning them to 5500rpm and such in large old boats. Quite a few here however spin them to 5200(which is a more normal marine engine WOT) without issue. It was used as an analogy if you will. I concur that good quality machining and balancing is essential. I DONT however agree you need to insist on a ROTTLER CNC to have a marine engine that will live. In a higher output engine than the OP's, yes, but where is your data outlining the need for such techniques? Again, ive see many a marine motor last many years in abusive environments with good traditional machining methods used. To me, its more about the talents of the machinist in question, not so much his choice of equipment. Again, any talented machinist knows what works and also has their "preference".

Back in the 60's & 70's my father was a professional unlimited hydroplane driver. He was also one of the only drivers who happened to be a very highly skilled journeyman machinist. We are talking V-12 rolls-Royce/Allison engines that would flatly laugh at this big block crap we are discussing here. The tolerances and setup in a WWII fighter engine like these are much more critical and non forgiving than any BBC. Do you think they had CNC anything in 1968???? uh no, they did not, however with a skilled machinist these engines would swallow large amounts of boost and nitrous in some cases at RPMs they were never intended to see sustained in these 180 MPH boats. My point is, your recommendation that a CNC is required is baseless. You might think or believe it to be, but that does not make it so. Too many variables....

I have used the Scorpion lifters in marine and auto applications with tremendous success. Theres a good reason the newer Mercury Racing motors utilize the Scorpion Marine endurance. They passed a very difficult endurance test designed specifically for marine roller rockers. Again, you have your recipe, and I have mine. Im not an EXPERT, but im also not a green horn.

I'm listening to the guy with a fast blown fountain that holds together if I'm doing a build. I believe in strength for security. Spend a little more now or a lot more later and then you factor in time which is invaluable.

I know of one but not spinning 5,500 and in a 303 Formula.. 465 HP Baker Engineering 454's based on '96 Gen VI 7.4L's. 5 seasons, 200 hours, 5,200 rev limiter. Going strong until late this summer when he reverted water into one coming off plane. Exhaust flapper issue. Boat has participated in multiple Poker Runs.

Didn't know this was a popularity contest. Comparing a 800hp blown fountain build to a 500hp(maybe) N/A build?! Doesn't get more apples & oranges than that. Not everyone here is loaded. And there are quite a few "budget" builds that have shown what's possible. To each their own. I never implied I was an Internet expert. Didn't know hours of research made you an accomplished engine builder. Now I know!

Knot 4 Me

Its good to see some real world evidence. And to hear what led to that mangled rods demise.

That looks scary, I wonder what that felt/sounded like in the boat.

All, I'm not just going to bore and hone and call it a day. I will have the proper checks done that need to be done in order to know that I have good blocks to start with. I will be changing pistons due to boring. I won't be buying pro comp anything or none of that knock off crap. I will stay with what's proven. I'll be piecing this thing together over the winter so I'll decide on what brand/quality parts as the days go by. Where I may "skimp" is in reusing the current rods if they are worthy. My stock heads are for sale locally so If they go then I'll be getting new heads. If I still have them come early next year then I'll reconsider my options.

MT - oil coolers have already been purchased. 3x16 for the port motor and same but added PS cooler for the stb motor. The stock 5/8 lines are big enough but will upgrade the fittings. My last build I used 5/8 pushlock hose and fittings due to relocating the oil filter and it worked out well. I may do the same for this build. I need to incorporate some oil tstats so will be adding some additional plumbing.

All, please, no need to comment on whether pushlock is "ok" or not. It's been used and proven so not wanting to start another pissing contest on that front.

Also, taking back the comments about the heads. I'll will have to make a decision on whether new heads or not when I decide on buying the pistions so I have a good combo and static compression. Just know that I'm not "piecing" like I said in previous post, these motors together blindly. It will be done with good components.

Thank you all for your advice and comments so far. Some people use the terms "budget build" to represent knock off parts and cutting coners everywhere possible. I consider them meaning a good reliable build that will last.

Loaded? Not sure who your talking about, but that sure isn't me. If I was, I wouldn't be running a 468 with B&M blowers on GM steel cranks. Those are/were budget built engines.

You really are something man. Two days ago you were pm'ing me about what main bolts you should run, and if your stock GM oil pans would be suffice in your build, and how you want to run a high volume pump with it, and which block you should use, etc. . You were trying to use standard ARP main bolts with the stock windage tray. I suppose that would work. Maybe you could epoxy some studs on the bolt head to bolt the windage tray on. I went out of my way to look up the correct part # for the GM bolts you need. Nice.

And here you are, on several threads, pretty much arguing, and disagreeing, and twisting around everything I say. Where the hell are the videos of your stroker 496 you been building all year?? Any dyno sheets? You've talked about how bad a$$ your dart 275 ovals are, and two months ago you were installing a set of gm vortec heads on the engine. Your quick to call out how the "marine" engine builders around here overbuild and overcharge, and basically calling me a dumb a$$ for what ive chosen to do as far as machine work, etc.

I tell ya what. Good luck with your 496 stroker build. Don't bother PM'ing me, Mike Tkach, with your engine questions. Its proven you already have all the answers.

Sounds like you got it handled. You've got my number, you're more than welcome to call anytime. As far as the pushloc, I'm running -12 pushloc on my oil lines, no issues so far. Your right, the merc fiting suck, and are the restriction. I've got some lifter part #'s and prices for you, pm me your email when you get time.

My build has changed over the past year. Don't get all sad about the loaded comment. Was I calling you out? No, if I were then I would just come out with it directly. Someone has a rich boy complex I guess?! I asked a question regarding gen IV part number vs GEN V & VI. I spaced it as I have quite a busy life. Am I perfect? No. If I was the epitope of marine knowledge I wouldn't inquire on certain aspects of my build. And you can bet I will post my results. Not so much for you, but because I love this hobby. I just laugh at the arrogance here from a few members.....

Don't worry I won't PM you or your friends. Sorry the two PM's bothered you. I stand by my previous statements that some of the advice you give is overkill. If that makes you all butt hurt oh well. Really don't care. You come off as some engine builder when you have built a couple 454's. Hail the king....

I can see why all the respected engine builders stopped posting here on oso. The floor is yours borgie. I'm gonna go ice my a$$ and read some car craft builds . See how far I can stretch those 3/8 rods . Maybe swing by the race shop and tell them guys they been wasting their time and money, when all they need is to go to pick and pull and get some rods from a 76-00 suburban with a big block.

No just keep taking all the hard work these actual builders have done, and post it on here as your own. Feed that EGO!!!! You act as if you were Dennis Moore and have his knowledge and experience. Actually I shouldn't compare you to him as he's actually a very nice guy. Your retort was weak. You might want to work on that.... Analogies are lost on you, it's very apparent.

Now back to the regular programming.

Baker did not touch the 300 hour short blocks other than to slightly notch the pistons due to the cam used. Brodix II aluminum heads, roller cams, WP single-plane intake, Nickerson 850 Holley's, MSD ignition, CMI E-tops. The top end parts are too big for a 454 but my buddy had 540's in mind down the road and figured if he could get a couple seasons out of the stock 454's that would space out the strain on the wallet. I teased him all the time about having ticking time bombs in the bilge. He didn't baby the motors but also was smart enough to know you couldn't leave the throttles in the kitchen all day long and not expect to snap a crank or put a rod out the pan. We were both amazed that 5 seasons later and 500 hours total on the short blocks they were still going strong. The block that hydrolocked was sleeved and they are now being made into 496's.

How about with all that money you saved on those I beams you cough up for a Paying membership so you can post pics of that 496

Oh I will be sure to. I am going to create a build thread in the next month or so.

What the f#$% is a Trovare?

Love,
Justin

I agree with much of what both Borgie and MT have stated and believe most of the difference in opinion is simply one of perspective on build budget. So take the best of both approaches ramos and build on. BTW, I've been here going on 12 years so I get the final say over all you yahoos if seniority is the gage. That is unless griff posts again (he's my senior) :o)

Do you have google?

yo yo yo,,i got new's for ya~!!!!!!!!! ALL gm rods are firged not cast....

yes. Difference was in the bolts. Truck rods (330 merc) had 3/8 bolts. Hi Perf (mag rods) had 7/16.

I personally, and as it was stated, I'm not a engine builder, would never reuse a stock rod bolt that has been in a engine since the 80's. I would at minimum replace with new 8740 ARP wave-loc bolts for the extra 60 bucks a set. Most shops charge 120-140 bucks to recondition a rod. So figure that, plus new bolts, you'll be about 200 bucks into the stock rods. But, hey, everyones budget is different, and theres nothing wrong with saving some money by re-using them, as long as they check out. The GM 7/16 I beam with good bolts will take some rpm. Heck, years ago, that's all they ran.

Heres a article on rebuilding rods. Theres a little more to it than tossing some new bolts in them.

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Arti...ting_rods.aspx

Borgie you bretty much answered your own ?,, hint....300 raised exhaust ports puy the exhaust ports over 1/4 '' higher then stock location so yes the studs should clear the wmi manifolds..as always i try to final fit all my parts and measure EVERYTHING before assembling it all to so it all fits..

Im confused?

BoredGi, since none of the big builders post anymore (probably got tired of every boner with a 23' Tovare and a 'magic room' arguing moot points) you just pissed of the only guy with enough knowledge who still post and helps folks around here.
What`s your next great debate toasted vs. non toasted sandwiches?


:picard1:

And for the record I don't recall my disagreeing with anyone as "pissing on the them". Poor rebuttals seem to be a trend here! Insulting my boat and insinuating I have a "magic room". Was that intended to insight an angry response? If you haven't noticed this drama phase of the thread is over. You sir are a day late and a dollar short. Next time you might want to respond quicker......

BoredGi????? So dumb

And just to keep this honest will full disclosure, yes I did remove a witty insult. Decided I didn't want to play your game of name calling, as classy as it might be. Lord knows you are trying to get me banned as we speak, which isn't going to work, or plotting with your offshore pals to see who is going to try and attack me next with your eloquent phrases and witty shop talk.... I'm patiently waiting.

Well done sir your are a man of many talents I see. Not only a master of the mechanical but a master of the dictionary.. bravo my man bravo!