ARP main bolts vs studs 4 bolt mains
 

What seems to be the general rule of thumb regarding marine BBC 4 bolt mains regarding bolts vs Studs? Asking as I'm building around a 600hp motor with forged parts and have been told arp bolts are more than adequate.

The bolts will be fine. Unless of course, you upgrade to some Rect port heads :gfight:

BAHAHAHA touché sir!

Don't forget to check the line hone

Yes I definitely will be double checking everything. Think I'm just in the overbuild mindset with head studs and mains when they are really not needed whatsoever in this kind of application.

Do you know if the ARP 135-5201 fit a gen V with factory windage tray?

no go with the stock windage tray. You'll need these from GM.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/NAL-10224104/

I'd have no worries using the GM fasteners with a 4 bolt main block at 600HP, especially in a low rpm marine engine. If you told me you were building a 7000RPM deal, that's different. Overall, im not a fan of the Gen V blocks, but that's irrelevant.

Thanks! Yeah I've considered looking for a gen VI 454 block and have heard they match better to a gen 4 style head like my DARTS. But can't seem to find many and the ones I do stumble on people want big $$$ for them.

What's wrong with the Gen V? All are 4 bolt blocks (unlike the mark IV that are 2 and 4 and the 4 bolts are getting harder and harder to find), better oil system then the mark IV, 1 piece crank seal. I think the reason they got a bad wrap was because of the no fuel pump boss and non-adjustable rockers but they are easy fixes for anyone building a motor.
When you just compare then Gen V to the Mark IV (and not what they should have done ie, roller rockers and fuel pump boss like the gen VI and leave out the Gen V it was behind its time) its as good if not a better motor then the Mark IV. I'll take one any day.

the only time I use studs is when I cannot find a 4bolt main block.bolts should be fine

Arp bolts will be more then enough with only 600hp. Like said before just make sure mains are on size after changing from factory bolts to the arp bolts and you will be good to go.

Hey thanks for all of your input guys! Friend of mine had a set of new studs for stock windage tray, so I scooped them up. Overkill but this way I can retain the tray and I got them for the cost of the ARP bolts.

Like was said just make sure they don't move the housing bore around. I've seen it many of times!!!

Thanks I will assure it does not move. Thanks for your input!

I see mike got to you,,theirs nothing wrong with gen v blocks,,the gen 6 has less meat on them..come by and ill show you..

Yes at one point but I researched it further and found there's nothing wrong with the Gen V, it just got a bad rap for several reasons. My machinist also said to "stick with the gen v". Thanks for your input.

if you sonic check a gen 5 block you will find that the cylinder barrels are way thinner than a gen 6 block.this is just a fact.im not saying the gen 5 block is junk,but they cannot be bored past .060 over.4.530 is it,any farther and it will fail.

Agreed. My buddys production Gen V's .030 over barely made the sonic test. His blocks are done at 509CI. The 454 based Gen V, I am not sure how far they can go. I know some have gone .060 without issues.

Anyone ever measure the deck thickness on a Mark IV and measured the deck thickness on a Gen V/VI production block?

just to clarify,i am talking about the 502 blocks,i dont know about the 454 blocks.

Thanks for that info mike. From what I have gathered, the Gen V 454 (in most cases unless significant corrosion or core shift occurred at birth) the Gen V & VI cylinder barrels are of similar thickness. Many state Gen V 454 decks are slightly thicker than that of the VI. I cannot confirm this. The only real advantage I see is the VI has raised lifter bores(which isn't a big selling point in a marine app IMO that turns low RPM and often aftermarket lifters). Would like to get your take on this?

Initially, I had thought the GEN VI 454 block would offer an advantage due to it being more compatible than a Gen V block with GEN IV heads. After speaking with a tech at Dart machinery, I realized that the aftermarket coolant passages, which are referred to as (Gen IV) are actually a universal or modified gen IV) so there is more meat than if you used a GM gen IV casting on a Gen V block. I have no experience regarding the 502 blocks.

Next week I'm going to swing by the machine shop to drop off my block. I will have it cleaned and sonic checked. My machinist has several gen IV & VI blocks. If he has time, I will have him measure the differences.

Attached is a sonic test performed on a production, siamese bore, 1997 Gen VI block used exclusively for 16 years in a marine application. The engine has been run primarily in fresh water, with four seasons in brackish. The measurements were taken from a 4.560” bore configuration. It has since been bored to 4.600”.

On the x axis the cylinder wall thickness of ~ .273”-.278” is consistent with the 4.84” bore centers.

The major (Y) thrust axis walls vary from a min. of .255” to a max. of .389”.

The minor thrust area varies from a min of .260” to a max. of .365”.

There is evidence of core shift in this block.

The production block decks will run ~ high .3xx” to low .5xx” In a closed deck application the decks tie the cylinders together, a critical element in bore stability. Always remove minimal deck material (less than 5% total dependent upon base thickness) or the cylinder case will distort increasing blow by and compromise cylinder seal. Avoid all blocks that have been decked beyond what is necessary to straighten or clean for Ra.

This block would make a good mid performance NA engine and bear watching with the increased cylinder pressures of forced induction. I have witnessed many production blocks north of 850 that have compromised/cracked the main webbing.

Bob

bob,thanks for posting this information,what do you say is a max bore for a gen5 block,i know someone who went to 4.530 and it failed,it cracked at the main webs.it was in a race car and did not make many passes before the failure.

Think you need to check your number Mike. 4.530 would make a stock 4.250 block 280 over. I personally wouldn't go anymore then .060 over on a marine block.

I believe he is referring to a 502 block. Which a 4.530 bore is .060 over 502.

you are correct,i was talking about 502 block.

Mike,
I would hesitate to put a hard number on that max bore value due to the disparity between individual engine blocks, due to core shift, casting anomalies, porosity and prior usage. Our approach would be to sonic test anything over a preset value (IE 4.500”), keeping the data with the block for future reference. You would then have the opportunity to base the future intended usage of the block on that data. If you have a block that tests well, there is the opportunity to invest in good parts for the build. If the block is marginal, it’s probably a good idea to keep the budget and scale in check for a more pedestrian build. With the understanding that everyone has some form of budgetary limitation I would add that sonic checking of your block is a very cost effective, inexpensive, measure.

For example, based on the testing data I posted, I would be confident using the above block in a NA application to ~775 HP. Some will make the point they may have exceed that number, however, it is still near the end of the road as per design limitations. While I won’t say it can’t be done, I will go on record that you need to proceed with caution. Start playing with power adders, crossing the 800 mark on a production (non Bowtie/Dart) block and you’ll find yourself tip toeing past the graveyard. At 1000 Hp it’s not a question of if, but when. As Billy Godbold says, “BYOM”.

Bob

so in other words mike the engines you built for joe b are grenade motors..ticking time bome and he wants to put 2171's on them lol..

bob,good info as usual,thanks for the reply.

im not sure what you mean but joe b has dart big m block.

:hijack:
As you probably know; Bob, is a friend of mine well over 6 yrs. I am proud to say; since then Bob, has supplied me with cams. He proved to me he could make a broader and higher power range than I was getting before. Even though the numbers from the prior supplier were good at higher rpms, he proved to me with the data collected the power was actually lacking where I needed it. Since then; we have always hit or exceeded those expectations.
As you can see from his post; his information is based on DATA. From having data, you can determine any issues that can or will arrive from this information. This is something that is in our conversations, from the start to the end.
So as expected from Bob, his post; to this thread is always based from data, and is not just from an opinion. Being said; this is a technical section. We should all try not to argue with each other. Sure we all have experience, we have successful builds and some that give us headaches, there are people who have deep pockets to buy the best of everything and others that only have a certain budget. Truthfully; in this business in which I have been for 24 yrs, you have to make wise decisions on what you can do, to fit the customers build, in a realistic decision.
It would be nice to be able to post information, without wondering if someone is going to argue with you or say; your a jackass. When I see name calling going on; I avoid getting involved or posting information pertaining to the thread. I will make a statement as you know; if the statements are from someone else. Repeated, or questionable. Getting into name calling, just lowers yourself.
I would think, that all of us would like to be able to pick-up the phone and talk to one another if need be.

Thanks for you time, Lets all smoke a PEACE PIPE:bong::bong: We need to set an example for; Wasington

MER
I hear what you are saying.
I have to say I'm a self-taught backyarder that's budgets are getting better but are nowhere close to some of the folks here and elsewhere. I just try to pass on what I know on the chance that it may help someone else out that is in my position. I’m not always right but I’m not always wrong either. Sometimes it’s due to extensive research and trial and error. Other times it’s just dumb luck but if it works and will save someone a few bucks then I see no reason to keep it a secret.
Secrets …. I’m not sure why some folks hold back on everything. I deal with a lot classic and in most case antiquated technology that for some reason folks think they are holding on to the Roswell files. Just an example now that most of the players have sadly passed so no feelings will get hurt. I have a 1959 Biesemeyer drag boat. No one wants to tell me any of the secrets about it. Set up, weight distribution all the way down to something as simple as like how to drive it. We are talking about a boat that was high tech back when most people had black and white TVs, the Moon landing was a decade away and cars were bigger than most boats and had fins on them (figure that out??? lol). I ended up in a b*tch fest of a thread over at P/B for just asking the comparison between a 2 and 3 blade prop. And I won’t even get into how crazy the Casale family (V drives) are except to say the first phone call started with the farther (Andy) asking what V drive I had? I said a C1000. He says, how do I know that? I say, because I’m looking at it on my work bench and one on their website. He says, “you have no clue what you have stupid” and slams the phone down hanging up on me. And yes it is a Casale C1000.
I don’t get it? Maybe if you are building the newest and best thing for Nascar or something but we are taking about a boat motor here. So what if someone in another part of the country built the same motor you built down to the last nut and bolt. Why does that matter to some? As for the “flamed” part, again so what. You want to bust my balls for what I built, have at it. I have been on the web for 15 years and you won’t be the first one. Hell, some even call me at home to do it (Fixx lol). The way I look at it is when your 100K boat comes blasting up the channel and a little red boat comes up beside you (that I paid hundreds for not thousands) I may not be able to out run you but you will know that you are not toying with a 1980’s Bayliner either (please, I’m not flaming Bayliner, learned my lesson during a 5 year long torture post on iboats). This is what the net is for. To spread the knowledge.
Lucky enough there are a few that are like me and if you scour the web you can find them. Those who bought or built a motor that works and lists the specs then it is as easy as buying the parts and following directions.
Last I would say for OSO in particular. You all weren’t born with silver spoons in your mouths. You had to start somewhere. Please keep that in mind when answering some of these posts. Bob is a good call which is free and his cams are no more expensive than most. But some of the stuff you all come up with I wouldn’t do in the Nova 24 Race Boat just for the fact of having 60 grand in motors in a boat that’s worth 40 on a good day. The money some will spend on exhaust for motors that will never use it is insane. Here is a tip for some folks that have made some upgrades to a 454 and is looking for exhaust. Check out MerCruiser 496 exhaust. I’ve checked out a few studies (people dyno’ing different brands on the same motor, etc, etc). I use them on 2 boats and they hold their own up to like 600hp for a fraction of the price. And let’s be honest most natural asp motors will never see 600hp at a WOT of 5000 rpms. And folks if you are a back yarder and worried about getting flamed, so what. You have friends here.

Very well put. In the past you have helped me stay on track with my build by not getting out of hand doing things that aren't needed and I really am grateful for that. Bob M is probably one of the coolest, well spoken, most knowledgable marine engine builders I have ever met. I'm not trying to kiss butt here, just stating my opinion and personal experience with these folks. And bob helps me even though I plan to buy pistons,valvetrain parts and maybe a cam depending upon budget and if this 525 efi cam won't work. I know he isn't making a mint off me, so I have to say he's a good man.

The other day I had a great talk with MER and I left that email convo feeling better about OSO. The last thing I would ever want to do is give bad advice and I try not to ever give it if I haven't done it. But I also get a bit tired of people assuming others financial backgrounds and suggesting unneeded components that are 3 times overbuilt. It discourages these folks from this great hobby and sport we all have so much passion for. I might have a 23 ft boat, but I have some of the same interests and am financially equal in many cases with my buddies who happen to own 38-40 ft offshore rigs. I just choose to not sink all of my money into one interest/hobby.

I too wish others weren't so bash happy and were more willing to help guys, but there are quite a few here, FIXX, BOB M, MER, Griff, Eddie @ young performance marine, Dennis Moore who do... The list is too long. Anyone here with knowledge enough to help, thank you for not forgetting where you came from. Quite a few of you do this for a living and constantly give FREE advice. Thanks for doing what you do, and keeping this sport/hobby alive and well.

Borgie, no hard feelings. If you need anything Pm' me and we'll talk. I apologize if I was being a dik. It's all good. Lets build you a killer 496.

I really appreciate that, and I apologize for coming off like a pompous pr**k, because I'm really not that way at all. Maybe some other things contributed to my getting too passionate about some of these topics. You have helped me in the past and I realize your have quite a bit of knowledge regarding marine engines etc. I will definitely PM you if I need to make some final build decisions. Unfortunately I'm also updating/restoring this boat, so it's going to be a long winter! Just removed my bravo today only to find a hammered gimble ring. Instead of repairing it I might just buy a low hour one off of eBay for $300 and buy the swivel shaft from JR marine. Oh well, it's a 20 year old boat and things are bound to wear out. Thx again.

Oh Jesus whats a bunch of *****es whats next group hug you fruitcakes

:gfight:

So what is your problem? This isn't the first time; I have seen some type of insult, from your post.
Maybe it's easier for you to make that statement, from your keyboard. I would say; you most likely would not walk up to anyone you are commenting towards and say that; to their face.
I'am sure the rest of these members; appricate your comment.