builder question?
 

when you pickup a pair of alum headed engines from the dyno one engine has coal black exhaust ports, the other appears to never been ran. one has carb and fuel pump rod, the other appears to never been ran, just wondering on you guys thought

Not to be captain obvious, but I would say that one of them was never ran. Were both supposed to be dynoed?

Was the agreement for both motors to be dyno'd ?

Since you know the answer...it's obvious....what are you getting at ?

Yes charged for both, the only reason im asking is the engine that wasnt dynoed didnt make it a hour before it detonated on cyl 5, and guess who is stuck paying the 4500.00 repair bill. Yep yours truly.i have no problem paying for something if i screwed it up, they told me since it wouldnt idle to bump up the timing i set the engine that had came back with all the stuff up to 36 in less than a few minutes, trying to get the other engine engine adjusted was a biittcchh. timing mark jumped all over the place. so after trying it with the light set on 36 ( it would start hard and sound good or crank hard and run like crap) finally i backed it in the water fired it up, adjusted it without a gun started good, ran good. now if it ran good started good, how can the builder tell me i set the timing wrong, and thats what happened. not saying it wasnt dynoed but if it was!!!! then as clean as the ex ports were it was lean and detonated before i ever installed it.

That's why I was standing there when both mine were on the dyno.

Many of us on OSO have also learned the hard way about rebuilds, engine builders and less that great results. My thought is to cut your losses now and find a engine builder where you have gotten input from a multiple of this customers. Even if you were in the dyno shop when both engines were run, it is possible you could have had the same result. There are lot's of things that can go wrong on the installing and rigging of a marine engine. Take your boat to Eddie Young and he will even provide in the water testing.

If I saw someone adjusting timing without a timing gun, I'd pull the distributor and beatch slap'm with it...for a while.

What kind of distributor/ignition system ? Just asking this to see why timing was bouncing all over the place.

im no dumb ass when you pick up 2 motors and one has coal black exhaust ports, carb bolted on,valve covers on, fuel pump rod installed,etc., the other looks like they just put it on a stand and said yes it was dynoed, the carb, valve covers, fuel pump, fp rod,were not on it,intake was taped up just like it was they first put it on. when we first took it out the thing wouldnt idle in gear, i called them he said add some timing to it, the dyno and our boats timing is different? like i said the one engine timed easy, the other would either start easy and sound lazy, or crank hard and sound good, 1 dist i think was locked the other not, so i took it and did it by ear, just like the old days, its got crane ignition boxes with merc dist.

the only thing that comes to mind is one engine the dist was locked the other wasnt. from the first time we picked up the engines i asked him are you sure it was dynoed,i asked his partner why that engine had clean exhaust ports he said as soon as it fires they turn black, and i said then why were these still clean aluminum, he said he really couldnt tell me. im just wondering if it had been dynoed. if it would had broken parts with a repair of 4500.00 at my expense, i have no prob paying for something i screwed up, but if it had timing issues, they should had caught that on the dyno, 600.00 for dyno plus parts, just something sounds wrong at my expense, cause in 2 boating summers ive got to use it 1.3hours at the cost of over 22,000.00 and i supplyed everything except for cams and valvetrain , intake, they machined the heads where corrosion was,and welded the block at the starter.

Not a dumb azz for noticing the one engine wasn't dyno'd. Things should have stopped here. I know, hindsight.

But, IMHO, a dumb azz for doing timing without a gun. Yeh, I'm old, so I know the old days, but you live and learn and thus why shouldn't touch a thing without a gun.

Do you have the Hi-6M crane boxes ?

If so, what timing curve (# on the dial) did you have both of them set at ?

yes crane hi-6m boxes set at 0retard 0advance 5700limit i called them out on the not being dynoed right in the beginning they had my money and parts i was at the mercy.

as far as standing there to hear the second engine, they were supposed to call, well they did!!!!!! to tell me they were ready to pick up, never said come to hear it.i know you guys would had went there yada yada yada, this is a big builder not some guy in his garage.builds offshore race motors,i just think they slipped this out hoping it would work but it didnt. now im stuck holding the bag or cash.

we dialed in the timing with the gun on 36. like i said the first one timed right on, the non dynoed wouldnt set 0n 36 rev it up to 3000 set it at 36 but cranked hard real hard , so after screwing with it i put it in the water i adjusted it by ear. then it started and ran good. for a little while.

The fact it wouldn't idle, and they said "throw some timing at it'' scares me. Timing it by ear also scares me. That worked in cars 30 years ago, because in most cars, you can hear it pinging if you had too much advance. Youre just not gonna hear that in a twin engine offshore boat especially with closed hatches and through hull exhaust. If one distributor was NOT locked out, and you set it to 36* at idle, well then you probably had 54 to 60* of timing once up and running.

I'd say it pretty much sounds like you're screwed. With all the bs you've been through on these builds, I'd be looking for another builder. You got a pair of N/A 540's, life shouldn't be this hard.

This is crazy. I hope this gets together for ya Johnny

Johnny, pull the distributor cap off the hurt engine. Try and twist the rotor and see if it moves back and forth. If the distributor which I am assuming is a msd, isn't locked out, you may have been able to get the light to show 36 degrees at 3000, but that doesn't mean anything. If heavy springs were in the centrifugal advance, the timing could still increase later in the rpm band, irregardless of what the crane box is set to. By 5000RPM you could have been pulling in additional advance which would result in what you have there.

What setting was the dial for timing set at ? It has 7 positions. Starts at 0 and last position is 6.

Who phased the Tbolt Rotors for you ? Where they phased per instruction sheet ? Or did you get them from Daytona sensors.

Merc distributors don't vary timing the ignition module controls timing. I love my HI-6M's
HI-6M Manual
http://www.sportcompactonly.com/manu.../90006462b.pdf

I was assuming he had MSD because he spoke of possibly one locked and one not locked. I wasn't aware of a way to unlock a merc distributor.

The builder set the dust, timed, etc, I installed them plug in my harness and changed nothing as far as timing etc, as far as a new builder well that's coming to, my money is as good as others is, everyone is acting like twisting the dust by ear is such a bad deal it broke a starter and ring gear the other way, and if I paid so much for these builds why am I having to time them if they were done correct on the dyno. I asked him if they dynoed this engine he assured me they did, no proof just taking there word, maybe his guy told him they did just to speed up the build

This is the whole reason I put a new Superflow Dyno in my shop. I can literally be dynoing the first motor and have the second motor on the other cart ready to go. When it comes time to swap motors it takes me 15 minuets to swap motors and have the next one running and setting the timing.

Having this ability made it practical for a customer to view the dyno time. They can arrive at 10 AM, watch both motors run on the dyno, pay the bill, and be loaded up and on their way home before lunch. It gives the customer the piece of mind of knowing they got what they paid for without scheduling an entire day at the shop.

the motor is since been rebuilt, the dist in the hurt motor was set completely diff than the good engine, I did nothing but what they told me to do, it would not run right if I just turn in advance on the dist. the whole ordeal is. im stuck paying for a motor that was never dynode, im being screwed but he did say I didn't charge you this time for the dyno.oh thanks for being so nice .trust me theres a lot of covering his ass to cover there name but if he makes me eat the whole bill then I will have to let his name be told. I mean come on you took my first season feb til the end of oct to refresh 2 engines, then I get 1.3hrs on the next season before I give up and pull the suspect engine. like I said get it in writing complete date, price and warranty. and there were 3 diff guys looking over my shoulder at the way we were timing it and they said it has to be off at the cam gear or degreed wrong, now that I couldn't tell you only they know. and the truth will never be revealed by them. that 1hour and 30minutes at 18.000 then 4400.00 do the math yes im pissed.

look it was not at 56 60 degress of timing, it started smooth and ran crisp, not saying it was on but it was atleast running more than I had before. I will end up eating this, and guess what you guys will get to see the dyno sheet, repair and build sheet on both engines, oh yes just for giggles I asked for the second dyno sheet in the beginning and it couldn't be found:angry-smiley-055::angry-smiley-055::angry-smiley-055::angry-smiley-055::angry-smiley-055:only to appear now.

Johnny, we are just trying to help, based on the information YOU provide us. If you took my suggestion of the timing scenario, as an insult to you or your buddies intelligence, I apologize. I do not know you personally. You can be a master tech, or a guy who has a hard time with righty tighty lefty loosey. I do not know what you're capable of as far as timing an engine.

Its seems as of lately, your posts are not on a quest for answers to your problems, but instead in a quest to tell the story of how your builder fuked you over. If that is the case, I'd rather not sit here trying to figure out scenerio's for someone who doesn't care to hear any technical insight. I feel like the guys trying to help you in these threads are being led on wild goose chases. Attempting to solve your problem for you, when in fact that is not what you want.

Why don't we quit dancing around the topic. You been posting about these engines and how badly you been screwed on them, for over a year now. Call the builder or shop out on it. This

Johnny, I don't know anything about your situation, builder, engines, etc. but there are a few things that I can tell you with 100% certainty. First, the engine was never ran if the exhaust ports are completely clean. No way around that one. They could have taken parts off of it, like the valve covers or whatever else, but there is no way to completely clean the ports on the engine. Next, if you set timing by ear, you will always set it high. The more timing you put in it, especially at idle or in gear, the better it sounds and runs (within reason) You will always end up with too much timing.

That brings me to a few questions. Why in the hell did you have to set the timing if the engine was run on the dyno? Why would ANY engine builder worth a damn tell the customer to set the timing? I would never tell one of my customers to set his own timing, especially after I had supposedly dynoed it. This is why I am in the boat the first time the engine runs, whether we installed it or not. If we didn't install it, I'm on a plane flying to where the boat is located.
Eddie

eddie,i had an engine at a dyno shop and they used a msd7 box on the dyno,weended up at 35 deg total because the engine liked it,when i installed it in the boat it was hard to start and sounded lazy.when i put the timing lite on it timing was at 0 and the dist was never moved from the set position on dyno.the difference was i had msd6al box in the boat.until that day i had no idea that the timing would be different with the 7 vs 6 box.

Merc distributors don't have a mechanical advance. They would both be locked without a module or advance set on the box.

If I remember correctly, the Crane Boxes needed to have the rotor phased to set the timing correctly.

Was it a digital 7 box or the 7al2? Rotor to cap relation while the piston is at tdc will always be the same no matter what box it is. Unless the digital box had the timing curve or advance set in it.

Does not matter what i wrote..Next!

I can't post the name as per my attorney, YET I called them out on everything right out of the box, I asked if it had been ran yet, was told yes , which by looking at it , it hadn't but what can I do they're the boss of there shop. I was trying to get some input from guys on here for my attorney to read as per dyno , thanks guys for all your help I will say this when I originally started doing these 700hp was the goal they're 75hp short and have been a headache since day one, I just feel as if it would had been dynoed I wouldn't be paying the 4500.00 repair bill and I paid 18000.00 to have them built and dynoed and the suspect engine hasn't ran right since the beginning and if there was a timing issue it would be caught on the dyno.

eddie thats what i thought, 1st thing was it took from march til the end of oct to finish, 2nd thing i said i wanted 700plus hp n/a, 3rd they just didnt do or say as to why the power was down, 4th it wouldnt idle even after 1700 worth of carb work, 5th it was drove more on one engine than 2, off the trailer back on. its all over now , im just not happy paying for a repair if it could had been resolved from the beginning, i asked several times about the dyno and the last time they acted as i called them a liar, all i was doing was stating the fact. mildthunder your correct i wasnt happy with how they turned out. i chose these guys cause of there big name and they were close. but i guess from now own they will go to tenn. ive never had work done by eddie but ive had a few questions and he acts as ive been a customer for a while that shows alot from him. as far as doing work they phased the dist,set the timing, i only touched that when he asked me to,

Did you find it under Tim's refund?

Apparently you do.

Johhny Boatman, sounds like YOU got screwed, myself having built quite a few motors in my life and having been to many dynos guessing only I would still lean more towards too much advance killing your motor as its not a great idea to time a boat motor by ear since unles its lean popping you will not hear detontaion until damage has been done, Smitty
As to why it needed more or wouldnt time, who knows but you need to fix damage THEN figure that out next!

That sucks, I woulkd have made sure that engine never left shop until I saw some proof it was dynoed, especially if I paid for both to be done, are you using analog timing light with dial? or digital? Digital ones can be goofy at times, I don't trust them, I had one that was 15 degrees off once, went back to analog....

This is an old thread.

Commanche3six brought it back up, and I responded, because Johnnyboatman scammed a person, Tim, on a bogus Bravo drive.

Johnnyboatman didn't just get scammed, he is a scammer too.

i think it,s called karma!