This weeks problems and issues
08-19-2002, 08:09 AM
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This weeks problems and issues
Okay well now onto bigger and better things
Most that have been following my saga know that I had one engine with low oil pressure while running around 3200 or so RPM's
Well I took off the rochester carbs, tweaked them and added more fuel to the mix and reinstalled them
I changed the oil to a straight 40 weight oil as well in both engines.
Now it seems BOTH engines oil pressure drops while under way at a moderate speed and rpm
I also am having major issues with getting her to move up on plane
Right now im running 21 pitch props and im having serious blow out.
I NEED much bigger props on this damn thing
She was revving about 2500-2800 rpm's and would not move , like I was in neutral
but you see all the water wooshing out the back of the boat but she has no bite.
The POOF out of the carb is NOT coming from the engine I thought it did
It is poofing out of the starboard engine NOT the port engine
And like I stated before now BOTH engines are getting the low oil pressure problems.
I also decided to test a few things out while I was out there
These are my other issues that need to be worked out (and are really strange)
FIRST
when running 3200 rpm's and you go to trim the port engine up, as soon as you hit the button to trim up the drive, it backfires out of the carb (that one has be totally baffled)
at WOT I can only turn 4400 RPM's max
She wont go any more
Im thinkin I just flat out dont have enough carb on these.
(stocker rochester 750 cfm carbs)
I ordered new metering rods and did all the adjustments to these that I could.
I cant get it out of its own way
Anyone have any input as to WTF is up with this thing
Now the wife wants me to sell it and get something else
She wants smaller but wants enclosed head compartment.
I just want to go boating
Oh and to add to this
port side drive does not want to go up all the time now, it is being finicky and wont go UP into trailer position and the bellows fell off of port drive (exhaust bellows)
but that we fixed at the ramp and the drive, works sometimes, have to figure that out.
Guys, im ready to trade this thing in and get something else before my stomach gets fully turned off to boating all together
Jason
Most that have been following my saga know that I had one engine with low oil pressure while running around 3200 or so RPM's
Well I took off the rochester carbs, tweaked them and added more fuel to the mix and reinstalled them
I changed the oil to a straight 40 weight oil as well in both engines.
Now it seems BOTH engines oil pressure drops while under way at a moderate speed and rpm
I also am having major issues with getting her to move up on plane
Right now im running 21 pitch props and im having serious blow out.
I NEED much bigger props on this damn thing
She was revving about 2500-2800 rpm's and would not move , like I was in neutral
but you see all the water wooshing out the back of the boat but she has no bite.
The POOF out of the carb is NOT coming from the engine I thought it did
It is poofing out of the starboard engine NOT the port engine
And like I stated before now BOTH engines are getting the low oil pressure problems.
I also decided to test a few things out while I was out there
These are my other issues that need to be worked out (and are really strange)
FIRST
when running 3200 rpm's and you go to trim the port engine up, as soon as you hit the button to trim up the drive, it backfires out of the carb (that one has be totally baffled)
at WOT I can only turn 4400 RPM's max
She wont go any more
Im thinkin I just flat out dont have enough carb on these.
(stocker rochester 750 cfm carbs)
I ordered new metering rods and did all the adjustments to these that I could.
I cant get it out of its own way
Anyone have any input as to WTF is up with this thing
Now the wife wants me to sell it and get something else
She wants smaller but wants enclosed head compartment.
I just want to go boating
Oh and to add to this
port side drive does not want to go up all the time now, it is being finicky and wont go UP into trailer position and the bellows fell off of port drive (exhaust bellows)
but that we fixed at the ramp and the drive, works sometimes, have to figure that out.
Guys, im ready to trade this thing in and get something else before my stomach gets fully turned off to boating all together
Jason
08-19-2002, 09:14 AM
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Jay,
You said that your exhaust bellows fell off - are you referring to the tube that goes to your exhaust passage on your drive for thru-hub exhaust? If so, that might be your blow-out issue. Merc usually leave this off for boats that are running thru-transom exhaust. Seems that I was told by someone that leaving the tube in without the exhaust going through it will cause an area of low pressure in front of the prop, leading to blowout. You were running silent choice before, and I think that some exhaust still goes down through the prop hub even when you have the divertors switched to run through the transom.
Might be something worth trying.
The backfire through the carb when you hit the trim button sounds like an ignition issue. Check your grounds, especially the coil. Do you know what ignition modules you are running? If it is a 22, at 8* initial you are running only about 30* total advance. These engines will probably want a little bit more than that. Try bumping the initial up to around 10*. I had an OMC that did the same thing once. I tried everything - coil, plug wires, cap& rotor, etc. Finally, I found that I had the ignition backed off way too much. When I set it to 8* advanced, it ran great and the popping noise went away.
Did you ever hook up that mechanical gauge to get a true oil pressure reading? Might be a good time to try cpqtim's idea with the digital thermometer to check oil temp. I saw the setup that he used - it works! And it's cheap!
Good luck!
You said that your exhaust bellows fell off - are you referring to the tube that goes to your exhaust passage on your drive for thru-hub exhaust? If so, that might be your blow-out issue. Merc usually leave this off for boats that are running thru-transom exhaust. Seems that I was told by someone that leaving the tube in without the exhaust going through it will cause an area of low pressure in front of the prop, leading to blowout. You were running silent choice before, and I think that some exhaust still goes down through the prop hub even when you have the divertors switched to run through the transom.
Might be something worth trying.
The backfire through the carb when you hit the trim button sounds like an ignition issue. Check your grounds, especially the coil. Do you know what ignition modules you are running? If it is a 22, at 8* initial you are running only about 30* total advance. These engines will probably want a little bit more than that. Try bumping the initial up to around 10*. I had an OMC that did the same thing once. I tried everything - coil, plug wires, cap& rotor, etc. Finally, I found that I had the ignition backed off way too much. When I set it to 8* advanced, it ran great and the popping noise went away.
Did you ever hook up that mechanical gauge to get a true oil pressure reading? Might be a good time to try cpqtim's idea with the digital thermometer to check oil temp. I saw the setup that he used - it works! And it's cheap!
Good luck!
08-19-2002, 09:53 AM
#3
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The poping when you hit the trim, is likely a electrical problem. Check all your wireing. The lack of trim up could be related. Also check your selenoid for a problem if it is intermitent.
Lastly I will say this. We can all speculate about what is wrong with your engines. BUT it is YOUR ENGINE BUILDERS responsibility. Ya that guy that put them together to stand behind his so far substandard customer care and take care of this. It is NOT your responsibility to figure this **** out. I know that they last thing you want to do is spend more money but at this point you really have to. HOWEVER just tossing parts and maybe this and maybe that is a BAD idea. I would either try and find more money to get the things done or put it away for a while, spend time with the wife and go back at it when you have time to do this correctly. What you need to do it pull the engines and get them on a dyno. The guys running the dyno will be able to meter all the things on the engine and get them running correctly with all the info that the dyno will spit out. THen you can try and work with the Q-jets or they will tell you to put a Holley on there. HOWEVER at least you will know what carb makes the most power and the jetting that you need to have and all that. Dyno time is relatively cheap. Most places from what I have found charge from 400-700 bucks to do this. The advantages that you will see are knowing what your engines are doing and being able to pinpoint your problems and make the most hp out of your engines. I think that you have MAJOR problems with your motor but how can we tell? Sorry for the bad news bro but I think this motor guys hosed you!!!!!
Lastly I will say this. We can all speculate about what is wrong with your engines. BUT it is YOUR ENGINE BUILDERS responsibility. Ya that guy that put them together to stand behind his so far substandard customer care and take care of this. It is NOT your responsibility to figure this **** out. I know that they last thing you want to do is spend more money but at this point you really have to. HOWEVER just tossing parts and maybe this and maybe that is a BAD idea. I would either try and find more money to get the things done or put it away for a while, spend time with the wife and go back at it when you have time to do this correctly. What you need to do it pull the engines and get them on a dyno. The guys running the dyno will be able to meter all the things on the engine and get them running correctly with all the info that the dyno will spit out. THen you can try and work with the Q-jets or they will tell you to put a Holley on there. HOWEVER at least you will know what carb makes the most power and the jetting that you need to have and all that. Dyno time is relatively cheap. Most places from what I have found charge from 400-700 bucks to do this. The advantages that you will see are knowing what your engines are doing and being able to pinpoint your problems and make the most hp out of your engines. I think that you have MAJOR problems with your motor but how can we tell? Sorry for the bad news bro but I think this motor guys hosed you!!!!!
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08-19-2002, 09:59 AM
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Hey Jon,
What is with the Prop Blow out?
Budman said about the exhaust bellows causing it?
I doubt that but never know
I think engines have too much power for 21 pitch props
But any ideas?
Jason
What is with the Prop Blow out?
Budman said about the exhaust bellows causing it?
I doubt that but never know
I think engines have too much power for 21 pitch props
But any ideas?
Jason
08-19-2002, 10:12 AM
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Jay,
With all the problems you have had I recall something about overheating at one time. Trace all wires from distributor and ignition module. Often times these were routed over the top of the intake and over time the heat degrades the wires. When this happens you get "green wire" and current carrying ability drops. This can cause weird ignition problems especially when trimming while on plane (greater draw on pump while on plane trimming in).
Tim T.
With all the problems you have had I recall something about overheating at one time. Trace all wires from distributor and ignition module. Often times these were routed over the top of the intake and over time the heat degrades the wires. When this happens you get "green wire" and current carrying ability drops. This can cause weird ignition problems especially when trimming while on plane (greater draw on pump while on plane trimming in).
Tim T.
08-19-2002, 10:18 AM
#6
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Prop blowout WAS or WAS NOT a problem before mods?
Are you saying that trimmed all the way DOWN that you cannot baby the boat out of the hole without contending with blowout?
* Are you sure the prop(s) have not hit something and dogeared a leading edge? This will cause cavitation and blowout.
* Are you sure both drives are actually going all the way DOWN when trimmed down?
* The exhaust bellows thing does sound like a feasible source of air for blowout...
As far as too much power for 21" props, thie is unlikely. Lower pitched props if anything, will come out of the hole much more quickly than higher pitched props.
It could be, though, that you do not have enough blade area. Example: A LaserII does not have as much blade area as a Mirage. A Mirage does not have as much blade area as a Mirage Plus. A mirage Plus does not have as much blade area as a Bravo1...
* Agreed that the popping sounds (or "reads") like ignition. Either intermittent connection or improper timing (due to malfunctioning or improperly adjusted advance mechanism).
Low coil output will first show up as upper-rpm misfire or pop. Check initial timing on both motors. If they both are in spec, then swap coils and see what happens.
Are you saying that trimmed all the way DOWN that you cannot baby the boat out of the hole without contending with blowout?
* Are you sure the prop(s) have not hit something and dogeared a leading edge? This will cause cavitation and blowout.
* Are you sure both drives are actually going all the way DOWN when trimmed down?
* The exhaust bellows thing does sound like a feasible source of air for blowout...
As far as too much power for 21" props, thie is unlikely. Lower pitched props if anything, will come out of the hole much more quickly than higher pitched props.
It could be, though, that you do not have enough blade area. Example: A LaserII does not have as much blade area as a Mirage. A Mirage does not have as much blade area as a Mirage Plus. A mirage Plus does not have as much blade area as a Bravo1...
* Agreed that the popping sounds (or "reads") like ignition. Either intermittent connection or improper timing (due to malfunctioning or improperly adjusted advance mechanism).
Low coil output will first show up as upper-rpm misfire or pop. Check initial timing on both motors. If they both are in spec, then swap coils and see what happens.
08-19-2002, 10:27 AM
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it was not a problem before that I know of
Then again I dont have much seat time in this thing but it has always been sort of blah out of the hole and the whole thing will stand up when getting on plane
But yesterday was a very rude awakening for me
I was slowing down to go over a few bigger wakes that I did not want to get airborne over, So i slowly throttled back and in doing so the nose of the boat stood up (which is normal but shame you cant see a damn thing )
went over the wakes and started to throttle it up a bit and was doing almost 3000 rpm's and we were not moving worth a damn
just sitting there revving and revving and revving
Now gas tank was full and had 6 people on board
(never had that many people on boat before)
but I always thought that lower pitch, better out of the hole and higher pitch worse out of the hole
I have standard Mirage props 21 pitch
I have not hit anything with them at all but I did clean up the leading edge with a file to get out a few mini dings but kept a nice curve on it. That was Last year when I did that
Have not had a problem with that until yesterday
I think some of the weight addition has something to do with it but with the kind of HP i have it should not have affected it at all
Jason
Then again I dont have much seat time in this thing but it has always been sort of blah out of the hole and the whole thing will stand up when getting on plane
But yesterday was a very rude awakening for me
I was slowing down to go over a few bigger wakes that I did not want to get airborne over, So i slowly throttled back and in doing so the nose of the boat stood up (which is normal but shame you cant see a damn thing )
went over the wakes and started to throttle it up a bit and was doing almost 3000 rpm's and we were not moving worth a damn
just sitting there revving and revving and revving
Now gas tank was full and had 6 people on board
(never had that many people on boat before)
but I always thought that lower pitch, better out of the hole and higher pitch worse out of the hole
I have standard Mirage props 21 pitch
I have not hit anything with them at all but I did clean up the leading edge with a file to get out a few mini dings but kept a nice curve on it. That was Last year when I did that
Have not had a problem with that until yesterday
I think some of the weight addition has something to do with it but with the kind of HP i have it should not have affected it at all
Jason
08-19-2002, 10:44 AM
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Jay, based on your last reply I think ( and hope for you) that the prop problem was what I have done a few times this year. One yesterday in fact....The boat is trimmed for some speed, then you slow and/or come off plane. you then try to plane off and a prop blows out. with my 272 formula (heavy boat)and 25 pitch quicksilvers, I have to tuck in all the way or I will blow one out every time. it will not catch again unless I WOT the other engine and get to full plane. it's easiest to Stop, drop and roll....
. ie. stop. trim both in, and start over. With 6 people and fuel. I would bet $50 that is all that happened. I've done it......... usually the one that blows out runs right up to 4 grand
. ie. stop. trim both in, and start over. With 6 people and fuel. I would bet $50 that is all that happened. I've done it......... usually the one that blows out runs right up to 4 grand
08-19-2002, 11:03 AM
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That is what I did do
Tucked the drives all the way in and she still blew out
took about 60 seconds to get her up and moving moving again
I did jam the throttles WO after I was moving and could only turn 4400 RPM's
the speedo (water pickup deal) said 40 mph
The engine builder said he is going to call the "warehouse" and see if there was a problem with the lot # oil pumps that I got.
if so, then he said they will pay me to pull out the engines.
Well how about this jerkey, How about I call Oh Holy one (IKE) and it is in a true service facility and they pay IKE to do it.
then I know it will have its driveability issues and other things done as well (which im more than happy to pay for)
this blow out $hit is just out of control
with just under 1000 HP (which im seriously doubting right now I have) this thing even with 21 pitch props should be a freaking MISSLE out of the hole, up on plane in 5-6 seconds and WOT should be at least 65 or so
Do I need much much more prop, 27-29 -30 pitch?
in thinking about the backfire out the carb when trimming I think maybe MAYBE the trim pump for some crazy reason is grounding to the coil and causing it to not fire when the button gets pressed?
I have never seen the crap I have experienced with this boat and the longer it goes on the more agitated I become.
All I want is to go have some fun out on the water
not keep pulling engines and drives and blah blah blah
anyone want a boat for 30 grand or best offer?
Jason
Tucked the drives all the way in and she still blew out
took about 60 seconds to get her up and moving moving again
I did jam the throttles WO after I was moving and could only turn 4400 RPM's
the speedo (water pickup deal) said 40 mph
The engine builder said he is going to call the "warehouse" and see if there was a problem with the lot # oil pumps that I got.
if so, then he said they will pay me to pull out the engines.
Well how about this jerkey, How about I call Oh Holy one (IKE) and it is in a true service facility and they pay IKE to do it.
then I know it will have its driveability issues and other things done as well (which im more than happy to pay for)
this blow out $hit is just out of control
with just under 1000 HP (which im seriously doubting right now I have) this thing even with 21 pitch props should be a freaking MISSLE out of the hole, up on plane in 5-6 seconds and WOT should be at least 65 or so
Do I need much much more prop, 27-29 -30 pitch?
in thinking about the backfire out the carb when trimming I think maybe MAYBE the trim pump for some crazy reason is grounding to the coil and causing it to not fire when the button gets pressed?
I have never seen the crap I have experienced with this boat and the longer it goes on the more agitated I become.
All I want is to go have some fun out on the water
not keep pulling engines and drives and blah blah blah
anyone want a boat for 30 grand or best offer?
Jason
08-19-2002, 12:21 PM
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Having learned this myself the hard way, I can only offer a dose of reality. If you have the money to buy a new boat (which I dont anymore) and things go wrong (which they all to frequently do) you hopefully have a dealer or manufacturer to help (all too often not).
That being said, when you buy a used boat, especially older ones, you pretty much have to be prepared to spend a bunch of money and time and more money to get it right. Not always, but probably more often than not. I bought an older boat a year and a half ago and have been working on it ever since and probably will be for a few years. I do all the work myself so it takes time. I know your not having a fun summer. I put a ton of work and money into mine last winter and had my share of breakdowns this year already.
All I can say is, learn to enjoy working on them. Otherwise, you'll go nuts.
And like Rambunctious said, when I blow my props out coming on plane, I have to be completely off plane and near idle speed before they will hook up again.
That being said, when you buy a used boat, especially older ones, you pretty much have to be prepared to spend a bunch of money and time and more money to get it right. Not always, but probably more often than not. I bought an older boat a year and a half ago and have been working on it ever since and probably will be for a few years. I do all the work myself so it takes time. I know your not having a fun summer. I put a ton of work and money into mine last winter and had my share of breakdowns this year already.
All I can say is, learn to enjoy working on them. Otherwise, you'll go nuts.
And like Rambunctious said, when I blow my props out coming on plane, I have to be completely off plane and near idle speed before they will hook up again.
