Bulletproof BBC Combo....SC or NA.....
 

OK you engine gurus and back yard weekend warriors. Heres the deal. For all those who dont know about engines i thought maybe we can put together the ultimate combo, or atleast soe sort of base line for first timers looking to get some power out of there boats.
Now i'm not talking about spending thousands upon thousands for billet stuff and "one off" custom jobbers.
The name of this game is more or less factory available or easy to get at. So lets say we combine all our thoughts and see if we can put together a combo that makes.....oh lets say about 550-600 reliable HP and doesnt need to be tinkered with every single weekend! Hows that sound?

*Base engine i think should be the ole-reliable 502 BBC
*Lets go with a off the shelf factory available Forged crank
*Forged pistons ofcourse but what is the general consensus of brand? and what compression do we want? 10:1 and run on premeum? or should we lower it and go with a blower??? :D
*Heads??
*Cam?? Lift?? Durration??
*Valve train??
*oiling system?
*Blower or Modified EFI system???


Lets get some suggestions going and ill keep updating the list so all the info will be at the top. I think this should help alot of people out there wanting/thinking about doing some engine work to theirs. :D

Great idea Wally. This should help me with some upcoming decisions. I would just add carb vs efi to the equation.

Depends how you want to run. I'm supercharger and love it. When set up properly with mild boost you will have no problems and will not have to constantly make adjustments. If you like to run 4000 + rpm for long runs, then maybe this is not the way to go.

If you go N/A, then you need to be concerned about who builds the motor. They can grenade just as fast as a supercharged motor.

Ken, can you post any specs on your engine/s? What kind of power your getting? What blowers? compression? cam size/make? etc..etc...

Thanks

520hp 575ft/lbs/tq
 

Here is what I built, rigged and installed over the winter, here goes:

Gen V 502 mag (forged crank and rods, 4 bolt main caps), ARP rod bolts, bored .034over. Block is now a 4.500 bore and stock stroke (4.000 I think) make it a 509 or 510ci motor, depending on who you ask. However, the extra .017 inches on each side of the piston probably makes little difference, so sticking with 502 ci's will do fine, unless machining is needed.

Kieth Black 9.9:1 hyperutectic(sp) pistons (on 118cc heads, mine are 119 cc heads, slightly droping the compression, see below)

GM High Perf Alum Heads, Rect Port, 2.25/1.88valves, 315cc runners, slight blend job on the intake ports, ARP stud Kit (@ $110 they better be good!!!!!!HAHAHAHA).

Crane Hydraulic Roller 226/234 dur, .598/.610 lift at .050. Crane triple springs, I think the spring rates are 195 and 415.....I think, not 100% on that and I am not in my office to look up the info (they are the springs Crane recommends to use with this cam...obviously.) Crane Hydrualic lifters, Summit 1.70 roller rockers.

Eldebrock Airgap Intake, Holley 850 Double pumper (mechanical secondaries)

MSD 6AL and MSD wires and MSD Blaster 2 coil, Bosch Platinum #1 plugs.

Melling High Volume Oil Pump, FelPro Gaskets.........hmmmmmm what else.......Holley electric fuel pump and regulator, K&N Arrestor.

Pre-build block work: Bored .034 over due to pitted cylinder walls. New cam bearings, Crank spun 30/30 (main and bearing journals), everything balanced, Align Bore.......I think that is it, this is all from memory here.

I blue printed all clearances to factory specs during the build. The entire motor has been balanced and blueprinted.

Dyno numbers with THIS carb were 520hp and 575 ft/lbs/tq with a very flat tq curve. It breaks 500 ft/lbs/tq @ about 2800 RPM and does not fall below 500 ft/lbs /tq until about 5400 rpm, with the peak at, I beleive, 4800. Gives the boat (24 Outlaw)great quickness. Runs very strong and clean. Oh yeah, I am running 80 jets on all four corners.

We ran dyno sweeps to 6000 RPm, no problem. I would twist in that hard, but the tq curve tells me to prop it at about 53-5400, which I am working on.

For more power without much hassle I would go one up on the cam selection to the .610/.632 lift Crane (I think that part number is 139741, and mine is 139731, one of you guys will be able to verify that.:D) and have some additional head work done. That may get you to the 550hp mark. Infact, I may do that myself.

I have only about 30 hours on the motor, but happy so far.....:D :D

Hope this helps someone out, becasue it took me a long freakin' time and some thorough research to pick these parts. Turned out to be an excellent N/A conservative boat motor. Nothing crazy and starts every day......sounds cool too!!! LAter, Allan4

I'm sure not the most drpendable but I love my Blower
motors!!!!!! Engine builder ran them on Dyno and told
me DONT TOUCH NUTHIN !!!! so far {50 hrs} I hav'nt .

Let's see...
Why go with a 502 when for under $2k you can make it a 540, there is no substitute for cubic inches.

How about the Canfield aluminum or Pro1 heads mildly ported with about a 120cc chamber (9:1cr)

Brodix , Dart , or Team G single plane intake.

Here's where I messed up.. I went with a solid roller cam (which makes great power 675hp) but if you want reliablitly go with a custom ground hydraulic roller.

850 Holley or 1050 Dominator (might be overkill)

MSD ignition

CMI headers, with the water dumping at the very end of the tailpipes (don't want to worry about reversion)

Some thing like this should make in the 600-625hp range unless you get real wild with the porting and maybe go up one on the CR then 675 plus can be had...just ask Kaama.

Re: 520hp 575ft/lbs/tq
 

Do you have power valves in the front and back or not?

My 540 w/ 850 Barry Grant flowing 920 cfm, full port and polish on heads and intake, 139741 cam, 2.3 and 1.9 valves, dynoed 683 at 5680 and 676 tq @ 4700.

I have 80's in the front with a 4.5 PV and 90's in the back with no PV.

230 hours, maint: Change oil every 20 to 30 hours, change plugs, rotor, and dist. cap once a year. 93 octane

That is it. Knock on fiberglas:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Mike, front and back.

Few other things to add, 32* advanced and a Barry Grant dual feed fuel line.....not that it matters, but looks pretty cool...:D

mine was set up at
 

34*

Hey Mike, why don't we just get it over with and swap motors, I know you would rather have mine.......HAHAHAHA!!!!! (I'll even deliver.....:D :D ;)

Wally,

Motors are 502, 435 hp GM marine crate engines with prochargers @ 6.5 lbs. of boost @ 5300 rpm. Motors have been balanced and blueprinted, heads ported & polished, comp. valve job, Imco exhaust. Everything else is stock, forged crank and pistons. I believe compression is 8:1.

Both motors were just rebuilt because the marina damaged both engines during a sea trial and agreed to balance and blueprint during rebuild. I paid extra for the head work, and valve job.

Motors dynoed @ 640 hp @ 5700 rpm with 5.5 lbs of boost and 650 lbs torque @ 4400 rpm. But the dyno and on the water are 2 different things. Loads are not the same. Obviously with my 5300rpm and 6.5 lbs of boost.

Ken,

Which do you think loads the engine more....the dyno or engine/boat in water? I'm guessing the props and weight of the boat probably has something to do with it---too many inconsistant variables---right?

Walley, "DanB" made 563hp at about 5500rpm with an air-gap intake, Crane 139741 hdy roller cam on 112*lobes, World Products cast iron 308cc heads(NON PORTED), 950cfm Holley, and about 9-9.5 comp ratio. It made 620 foot pounds of torque at about 3500rpm. He dyno'd it at Tyler Crocket's shop. BTW, it was a 502. He runs his boat with Lightning headers. Thing runs real sweet.

Alternative combo
 

Not trying to be OT- but....
Merc 454 MAGEFI + 7 lbs of Whipple = 650 hp and 740 tq that I change oil on, occasionally adjust idle speed (once in 87 hrs) and watch gages.

A pretty reasonable priced combo with EFI!

Now- when the time comes for freshening- what do I do to this combo to make it better? So far I plan on Inconel ex valves, the right felpro o-ring head gaskets and some ARP head bolts. If I'm feeling spendy I might go for some roller rockers.

I suspect there will be a market for a better cam or bigger inch shortblock for these combo's- I guess the computer would need programming and maybe some larger injectors?

Kaama,

I think it may depend on the dyno. I had one guy do work for me and he said he could program the dyno to simulate launching and re-entry. Might be able to somehow program boat weight etc. to get more acurate #s. Then again he could have been full of ****. Everything else he told me was.

Re: Alternative combo
 

Do what:rolleyes:

Stock 454/385 @ the prop and probably 425 hp @ the crank at most. 425 - 650 = 225 hp increase. Is that possible:confused:
740 lbs. of tq.

My 540 with full port and polished heads with 610/625 lift maxed @ 676 lbs. of tq @ 4700.

Not saying it ain't so just askin :D

Not inflated?
 

HTM- these numbers are according to Dustin, at the crank, not prop. These are stock numbers for the Whippled 502, my 454 with a little extra boost comes out similar.

So personally, I trust Dustin and the boat performance seems on par.

I do have appreciation for a good custom motor that pulls hard to 6k though- seems like they can be set up to go faster per given HP- at least per my armchair test and oso reading etc etc.

At any rate- I'm a happy customer.:D

KAAMA, did DanB try any other cams????

Curious, because it sounds like we have comparable motors, but I am one size down on the Crane cam and he is making alot more power than I. Just wondering if my heads are that bad????? Thanks

Allan4, DanB is running a 950cfm carb compared to your 850. I really can't see why that would make a difference but maybe it does. With an 950cfm carb on the dyno, my 540's made about 16 more horsepower over the 830cfm carb, but didn't really see the increase until ABOVE 5400rpm and at some lower rpm levels the 830 carb out performed the 950. Perhaps too many variables, but at least there's one thing to think about. Also, he used some cast iron World Products 308cc heads with a .225" intake valve and 1.88" exhausts, 3-angle valve job and as I said before NO PORT WORK! He's also using a MSD ignition box. Crocket I think used some other headers on the dyno. DanB is using the Lightning's in his boat so they will be close. He only used the 139741 cam in his engine for dyno testing and his boat as they are very expensive. That's about all I can tell you bud!

Ken, sorry to hear about your bad expereinces with your engine builder as I have just parted ways with the engine builder I was using too.

Allan
Kaama pretty much sumed it up
622 lbs tq@3400, 529lbs @ 5600
563 hp @ 5600
The only thing different in my combo is the Crane 741 cam, (straight up) merlin 310 VR heads that Valako cleaned up (cc chambers, 3 angle valve job) Crane rockers, 950cfm Holley HP4150 w/82 jets front and rear, 1" carb spacer, K&N 7" tall filter
One other thing was I had the block squared and decked about 10thou (I think) to increase quench. Run a .038 head gasket.
JE 9.8-1 Pistons W/C&A rings. 34* timing all in @3400rpm
Our #'s are pretty close, so I dont think your far off, might just be the cam?
Dan

82's front and rear... Do you have power valves front and rear??
 

KAAMA DanB, thanks for the info.

Dan, did you run any dyno sweeps with and without the K&N and are the numbers above with or without it? I have one I currently run, but did not run andy dyno sweeps with it adn I am wondering how much it helps/hurts/etc. You are about 45-50 numbers bigger on both hp and tq, so doubt it is just cam, probably the heads, which is allowing the bigger carb and so on. Mine did not like anything bigger than the 850 (4150 as well). Ran best at 32* as well. MSD 6AL here. Hmmmm............Damn! Anyway, food for thought, thanks guys for the input.


If I wasn't so hell bent on dyno time before I install the motor, I would think about upgrades this winter, cam and head work. We'll see........you know what that means....:D

Mike, I think you win the award for best highlight ability in your posts HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!:D :D

I may have won the contest for highlights but didn't get my
 

question answered. Does the carb have power valves or not. Got to know:confused: :confused:

mike-I do not know the answer from the person you are looking from but I have used power valves on every project I have done. Carb jetting is a compromes from off idle to wide open. Power valves just help you get close to the right Air/fuel ratio right on at all throttle settings. This goes for blower or NA. If you only go from idle to full like in a drag boat or car then power valves get in way.

Has anyone tested another cam then Crane 731/741?

This winter I am building a mild motor strarting with my current GenV 454. Four bolt mains and oval ports. I am told that these heads with a cleanup and intake/gasket/port match are good to 6,000rpm. My usual mechanic suggests basically building it into a HP500. I am looking for a maintenance free setup. An ocasional rocker adjustment at most. This boats never going to be real fast so I would rather have it be strong and reliable. Its only rated at 275pshp now and could use some life. Im not sure how much power I want to push through my King Cobra/Vovlo SX drive on a heavy single engine combo. Any thoughts appreciated.

How about a N/A build up using the GMPP 502ci partial.
You get a complete 4 bolt shortblock for $3960.
Add good flowing alum heads with around 9.5:1cr. Dart or Brodix
Single plane intake.
900cfm carb.
MSD dist.
Mild to wild hyd. roller cam...you all ready have the lifters.
Can someone get this combo to pump out 600HP?

Hey Intolerant One, just a heads up; you can't build an HP500 from a 454 block. You would need a 502 block. The 454 block cannot be bored that big.
Dave
:(

Hey Intolerant1
Either do a search or email Waterfoul.
If you mimic his set up, you will be more than happy.
I did my 454s nearly the same as his in 99 and I am.
There's a guy in the area that can get super deals on Federal Mugal engine parts (pistons, cams, bearings).
email me and I'll get you his number.

[email protected]

502 crate motor with a warranty is sounding better and better.

ALLEN 4
 

Im building a 502 simular to your combo.How much mph did you gain from last engine.What was in your boat before?Did you run Powervavles in the secondarys?
Dave

Exhaust system?
 

What type of exhaust systems are you using on the combos above?

Thanks
Torbjorn

Just my .02

It really depends on the load you are trying to push. I know of a pair of 1000 Blower motors going on 325 hours and only has had the lash set every spring.

It also depends on how you drive them. If you get in the boat and push the sticks to the wood and leave them there, stay away from the blowers, if you are looking for the power to have a quick blast when needed, they cannot be beat.

I cruise mine around 3500 and make the blast when desired. They will last like that.

If you want any details PM me and I can give you some details, I have been both routes, of course now we went a little overboard on the new ones :rolleyes:

Again my .02

I agree with the PV's
 

Just curious if he was using PV's front and or back with that jet s
set up

Allan
Kaama pretty much sumed it up
622 lbs tq@3400, 529lbs @ 5600
563 hp @ 5600
The only thing different in my combo is the Crane 741 cam, (straight up) merlin 310 VR heads that Valako cleaned up (cc chambers, 3 angle valve job) Crane rockers, 950cfm Holley HP4150 w/82 jets front and rear, 1" carb spacer, K&N 7" tall filter
One other thing was I had the block squared and decked about 10thou (I think) to increase quench. Run a .038 head gasket.
JE 9.8-1 Pistons W/C&A rings. 34* timing all in @3400rpm
Our #'s are pretty close, so I dont think your far off, might just be the cam