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Originally Posted by brian41
(Post 4276757)
Brown truck driver chic delivered with some head today. I think the exhaust is going to be just fine.....
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Were you speaking about HER exhaust or the cylinder head , just wanted to be clear :drool1:
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LOL.
Nothing beats good box ! Especially when delivering great head. http://images2.fanpop.com/image/phot...6-1024-768.jpg |
Originally Posted by SB
(Post 4276825)
LOL.
This one has good, firm box .....control ! http://images2.fanpop.com/image/phot...6-1024-768.jpg |
As usual a UPS box is never in the best condition when they show up at your door....that might have been her a few years ago.....butt.
Heads are the 357 CNC's, hard anodized, 114 CC chambers with valve and spring upgrades. |
Originally Posted by brian41
(Post 4277063)
As usual a UPS box is never in the best condition when they show up at your door....that might have been her a few years ago.....butt.
Heads are the 357 CNC's, hard anodized, 114 CC chambers with valve and spring upgrades. |
Originally Posted by sutphen 30
(Post 4277099)
nice.what size engine?
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Originally Posted by brian41
(Post 4276757)
Brown truck driver chic delivered with some head today. I think the exhaust is going to be just fine.....
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Originally Posted by articfriends
(Post 4277166)
Brian, might as well throw those junk ass scrap heads out to the curb, btw, whats your street address again??
Sent you a PM. |
The 345 darts are " as cast" and not CNC ported.
I didn't see anywhere on this thread or even the other thread, where anyone referred to the AFR heads as "junk" "scrap" etc. Unless I missed it ? |
Joe, I think you been had,lol
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Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4277188)
I didn't see anywhere on this thread or even the other thread, where anyone referred to the AFR heads as "junk" "scrap" etc. Unless I missed it ?
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Originally Posted by onesickpantera
(Post 4277309)
Agreed. Just because something can be improved upon doesn't mean something was "wrong" with it to start with.
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Originally Posted by onesickpantera
(Post 4277309)
Agreed. Just because something can be improved upon doesn't mean something was "wrong" with it to start with.
I'm never wrong.....just in need of some improvement honey ! LMAOF> |
Originally Posted by Black Baja
(Post 4277313)
Still no confirmation of improvement.
I think JimV stated in the other thread, as well as showed some date, where HE felt the AFR's port was lacking something. I think he was challenged to prove that information by some on a dyno, and I think he said "waiting on plane tickets''. He's showed the numbers and a live flow test video on his bench, that wasnt good enough for anyone. Other than a back to back dyno test, I don't see how you are going to get your answer that you are seeking. I myself, who has absolutely no dog in this fight whatsover, offered to come help with that test and lend a hand, and even a few bucks towards dyno time, if it were to take place. Mike Tkach, even mentioned he had a brand new pair of AFR 315's on his shelf. I'm sure Jim would be up for the challenge. At least I can say JimV provided a video and some flow numbers, which is 1 step more than anyone else has in this thread has done, as far as proving Jim's info being "wrong". As a consumer myself, rather than embarking on a quest to disprove what a man (with quite an extensive backround in cylinder head design) stated regarding a store bought product living up to its claims, I am more interested in finding out if AFR, or any head companies, product, is actually living up to its claims. In this industry, we all know not everything is what it's ''claimed" to be. If AFR claims 300CFM at .700 at the ex port, I wanna know, does it flow .300 cfm? Or is it really 280 cfm? If holley says their fuel pump flows 130 GPH at 7psi, I wanna trust that it does, and not 100GPH at 7psi. Personally, I can care less who's right or wrong about the AFR heads. Theres nothing here keeping me from purchasing them. But, I am all for watching the "experts'', put the BS aside, and bring their claims or opinions to the dyno. I'd be willing to bet, that if it was Darin Morgan, who posted on here, that the exhaust port floor on a dart pro 1, leaves something to be desired, everyone would be bashing dart heads, rather than questioning darin morgan. As a matter of fact, JimV himself made a statement regarding dart's ex port deficiencies, and I didnt see anyone raising helll about that statement he made. |
Think all the numbers from most are fudged a little. I am sure mine are to from brodix. Fudged numbers sell heads. Think I herd mine are 10-15 cfm fudged will see what the dyno says. If they make the HP you are looking for that's what counts at the end of the day.
:pray:If not than they are turds. |
Show me another company who does this:
Qouting AFR at http://www.airflowresearch.com/why_afr.php on 2 worthwhile notables: 10 - Honest Advertising AFR stands behind all of our advertised flow numbers (to account for production tolerances, we guarantee our numbers within 2% of advertised). While some of our competitors seem to take some liberties in that department, we try our best to meet or exceed all our published data. In fact, a handful of our products actually flow notably higher than we claim. Read More A lot of engine builders rely on our heads to deliver the power they guarantee. It is important we provide them with a head that delivers and flows as promised every time. It’s also important to note that some manufacturer’s flow their heads on different types of equipment and conveniently don’t include that information in their test results. Cylinder head flow testing equipment is no different than dyno’s; some read higher than others and a few types of equipment tend to read a lot higher. All of our heads are tested on an accurately calibrated SF600, what most still consider to be the industry standard although the SF1020 has gained a lot of popularity in recent years as well. The newer 1020 benches read very close to an SF600 model while some of the older 1020 units were a little stingier. Note all our intake data is obtained using a proper fitting radius plate with the appropriate corner radius’s (clay is not consistent), and all our exhaust data is flowed thru a curved pipe that directly simulates a typical header installed in a production vehicle (a pipe about 10” long that has an immediate curve off the exhaust flange and straightens out). 4 - Warranty AFR warranties the aluminum cylinder head casting for the lifetime to the original purchaser with proof of purchase. Additionally, valves, guides, valve seats, valve springs, valve job, retainers, locks, studs, guide plates, valve seals are warranted for two years to the original purchaser with proof of purchase. Read More All returns must have a RMA number in order to be returned, call for a RMA number. Parts must be returned prepaid freight by the original purchaser. When it has been determined, by AFR at its sole discretion, that the product does indeed have a warrantable problem from workmanship, materials or an undetermined cause (mystery failure) AFR will repair at no charge and reimburse UPS ground freight and return UPS ground freight. AFR will repair or replace the casting at its option. This warranty doesn’t cover fitness for purpose and/or merchantability on any product sold by AFR. |
Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4277336)
We are at page 18, and yes, still no proof that they can be improved on. While also, there is yet no proof that they CANNOT be improved on.
I think JimV stated in the other thread, as well as showed some date, where HE felt the AFR's port was lacking something. I think he was challenged to prove that information by some on a dyno, and I think he said "waiting on plane tickets''..... I will supply the JimV modified Exhaust port, AFR cnc'd heads and test engine (one of my 565cid engines), Mike Tkack supplies the AFR 315cc heads untouched,...then with all due respect to JimV, if he truly believes his own porting techniques with his own hand on a set of AFR cnc'd heads can increase a reasonable amount of HP/Torque output on a dyno, then let him pay Dave W for the dyno time. My engines stay at Dave W's shop...if any work needs to be done to conduct the test such as new valve springs, installed spring height, head/intake gaskets, valve job, etc, etc. then it will be done in Dave W's shop. If anyone else wants to contribute towards the cause of the test, then I suppose they can, but I don't think it would be fair without a contribution from JimV....at least he or we can save money on the "plane tickets" as we can conduct the test right here in his living area. And if the test comes out in JimV's favor and there is a significant increase in HP on the dyno, then JimV may reap the rewards from selling the porting projects from future customers he may gain from the results of the test---and people can go to him for the port work. Again, with all due respect to JimV, he is the one making a public claim on this forum about the AFR cnc'd Exhaust port not being as good as it could or should be, then let him be the one to put his own money where his mouth is by fronting and contributing towards the costs of the test. And if it his modified port work on a set of cnc ported AFR Exhaust ports turn out to be what he says it will be, then he can tell us all that he told us so. From what I remember, JimV has not proved once in a back to back dyno test how much increased HP his port work has done/will do on a set of heads. If he has, then from what I know he has not made it public to prove his point on here. |
Originally Posted by KAAMA
(Post 4277374)
MT, I did not want to reprint your entire post, but in a previous post within this thread, I had said I am willing to contribute one of my 565cid engines that have been sitting since 2008 at Dave W's shop that have the AFR 315cc fully cnc'd ports that were modified by JimV back around the month of March or in 2005. JimV modified the exhaust ports on my/those AFR heads and I have also already posted the CFM numbers within this thread.
I will supply the JimV modified Exhaust port, AFR cnc'd heads and test engine (one of my 565cid engines), Mike Tkack supplies the AFR 315cc heads untouched,...then with all due respect to JimV, if he truly believes his own porting techniques with his own hand on a set of AFR cnc'd heads can increase a reasonable amount of HP/Torque output on a dyno, then let him pay Dave W for the dyno time. My engines stay at Dave W's shop...if any work needs to be done to conduct the test such as new valve springs, installed spring height, head/intake gaskets, valve job, etc, etc. then it will be done in Dave W's shop. If anyone else wants to contribute towards the cause of the test, then I suppose they can, but I don't think it would be fair without a contribution from JimV....at least he or we can save money on the "plane tickets" as we can conduct the test right here in his living area. And if the test comes out in JimV's favor and there is a significant increase in HP on the dyno, then JimV may reap the rewards from selling the porting projects from future customers he may gain from the results of the test---and people can go to him for the port work. Again, with all due respect to JimV, he is the one making a public claim on this forum about the AFR cnc'd Exhaust port not being as good as it could or should be, then let him be the one to put his own money where his mouth is by fronting and contributing towards the costs of the test. And if it his modified port work on a set of cnc ported AFR Exhaust ports turn out to be what he says it will be, then he can tell us all that he told us so. From what I remember, JimV has not proved once in a back to back dyno test how much increased HP his port work has done/will do on a set of heads. If he has, then from what I know he has not made it public to prove his point on here. Its funny, I was just sitting here drinking my evening coffee, and reading a thread on another boating site. The thread consisted of a flow test on a new set of AFR heads, tested by an independent engine builder, along side a pair of out of the box dart heads. In that thread, the AFR's did not flow what they were claimed to, on this particular persons bench. And it was a repeat of the oso debate. Matter of fact, kinda funny to see the SAME guys here defending AFR, were over there doing the same thing, several years ago. Different screen names, same person. While they were trying to call BS on the posted flow test results, they themselves had nothing to show fact wise, to prove wrong. Just name calling, twisting words, and so on. Its like groundhog day. :D |
I'm just glad there not *****ing about my heads.:party-smiley-004:
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Originally Posted by MILD THUNDER
(Post 4277381)
Makes sense to me Mark. I really have no dog in the fight, I just like FACTS, not politics.
Its funny, I was just sitting here drinking my evening coffee, and reading a thread on another boating site. The thread consisted of a flow test on a new set of AFR heads, tested by an independent engine builder, along side a pair of out of the box dart heads. In that thread, the AFR's did not flow what they were claimed to, on this particular persons bench. And it was a repeat of the oso debate. |
Heres the flow numbers from that thread I'm speaking of
Next: AFR 305 as-cast, assembled from AFR with their valves, 2.25 intake with backcut (angle unknown) AFR 1.88 exhaust. AFR as-cast advertised: right/ex .2 154/131 .3 223/176 .4 287/219 .5 335/251 .6 363/276 .7--------- Truth: right/left/ex .2 146/143/109 .3 209/210/144 .4 268/276/185 .5 324/327/223 .6 366/336/250 .7 361/343/262 .8 ---/345/271 The bowls are nicely CNC blended but transition from the seat to the chamber is terrible. The exhaust port I believe suffers far worse because of this than the intake. Now, he didnt have the advertised flow numbers from the darts. Dart doesnt have the flow numbers on their site, but I do have their master catalog here, that does. So, heres what my catalog shows for the 310's. .200 147/136 .300 219/175 .400 275/210 .500 318/233 .600 347/249 .700 364/258 .800 .369/266 Here is what that builder got on his bench with the out of the box dart heads Left/Right/Exhaust .2 140/141/111 .3 207/207/151 .4 271/271/192 .5 322/312/227 .6 351/329/254 .7 365/329/271 .8 341/335/281 |
Originally Posted by KAAMA
(Post 4277388)
On a different thread back in 2011, Articfriends/Smitty, posted a link to a website that shows several flow bench tests of several different head designs and companies, etc...including AFR and all their BBC head designs and ports, etc.....were done by what looked like several or at least a few different flow bench shops. (I tried copy/pasting the link to this thread, but it doesn't work for some reason) Although some of the tests varied from flow bench company to flow bench company, it never showed the AFR Exhaust ports as being a lagging port as JimV has claimed.
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Kaama, I know the site youre speaking off. Heres some numbers I got off there.
Dart 335 CNC 4.5 bore no pipe and AFR 335 cnc 4.6" bore, no pipe . Then AFR 335 cnc 4.6'' bore, WITH 2 1/8TH PIPE. Dart is top numbers .200 .300 .400 .500 .600 .700 174/136 245/178 306/235 353/265 383/282 401/296 170/133 249/178 313/230 362/259 396/268 405/273 164/144 240/197 304/257 352/285 385/311 404/319 Without the pipes, looks like darts ex ports flow more? Would have been interesting to see the darts port WITH the 2 1/8 pipe. Couldnt find any flow data with a pipe on a dart head on that site. |
Originally Posted by KAAMA
(Post 4277374)
MT, I did not want to reprint your entire post, but in a previous post within this thread, I had said I am willing to contribute one of my 565cid engines that have been sitting since 2008 at Dave W's shop that have the AFR 315cc fully cnc'd ports that were modified by JimV back around the month of March or in 2005. JimV modified the exhaust ports on my/those AFR heads and I have also already posted the CFM numbers within this thread.
I will supply the JimV modified Exhaust port, AFR cnc'd heads and test engine (one of my 565cid engines), Mike Tkack supplies the AFR 315cc heads untouched,...then with all due respect to JimV, if he truly believes his own porting techniques with his own hand on a set of AFR cnc'd heads can increase a reasonable amount of HP/Torque output on a dyno, then let him pay Dave W for the dyno time. My engines stay at Dave W's shop...if any work needs to be done to conduct the test such as new valve springs, installed spring height, head/intake gaskets, valve job, etc, etc. then it will be done in Dave W's shop. If anyone else wants to contribute towards the cause of the test, then I suppose they can, but I don't think it would be fair without a contribution from JimV....at least he or we can save money on the "plane tickets" as we can conduct the test right here in his living area. And if the test comes out in JimV's favor and there is a significant increase in HP on the dyno, then JimV may reap the rewards from selling the porting projects from future customers he may gain from the results of the test---and people can go to him for the port work. Again, with all due respect to JimV, he is the one making a public claim on this forum about the AFR cnc'd Exhaust port not being as good as it could or should be, then let him be the one to put his own money where his mouth is by fronting and contributing towards the costs of the test. And if it his modified port work on a set of cnc ported AFR Exhaust ports turn out to be what he says it will be, then he can tell us all that he told us so. From what I remember, JimV has not proved once in a back to back dyno test how much increased HP his port work has done/will do on a set of heads. If he has, then from what I know he has not made it public to prove his point on here. |
Joe, according to Bob-o you can`t go to Dave`s shop remember. Guess we will never know .
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I will donate the dyno time. We are in the middle of crunch time for this years projects but will have time after the 2nd week in June.
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Originally Posted by brian41
(Post 4277562)
I will donate the dyno time. We are in the middle of crunch time for this years projects but will have time after the 2nd week in June.
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1 Attachment(s)
Originally Posted by the deep
(Post 4274799)
Although they say nothing about seat widths they do mention vgc in the literature as follows : Our typical valve guide clearances are .0013 - .0016 . In some severe applications ( nitrous , marine endurance racing or blower usage ) looser guides might be required . Check with your engine builder .
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At least I got 1.5 hours of boating in after full new rebuilds, never even saw WOT... Very sad
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Tim I would think under the conditions that you were using your engines even at those stock clearances this should not have happened, no long term WOT, general break in running, never should have seized a guide, It must have been a tighter clearance then that or some other condition. I'm sure your machinist will get to the bottom of it.
On a side note. I had a similar situation with a friends engine, turn out to be the wrong spring setup for the cam, self destructed at 4k. |
Originally Posted by Full Force
(Post 4308374)
Wish this was told to me long ago if asked and was assured my heads can be bolted on...wanna guess result? [ATTACH=CONFIG]541405[/ATTACH]
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Originally Posted by abones
(Post 4308377)
Tim I would think under the conditions that you were using your engines even at those stock clearances this should not have happened, no long term WOT, general break in running, never should have seized a guide, It must have been a tighter clearance then that or some other condition. I'm sure your machinist will get to the bottom of it.
On a side note. I had a similar situation with a friends engine, turn out to be the wrong spring setup for the cam, self destructed at 4k. |
Originally Posted by Full Force
(Post 4308403)
This was a short burst at 5200 maybe 10 seconds
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What was the timing? Number 7 cylinder? At 5200 I would think you were in the meat and potatoes of torque/ cylinder pressure. How about a picture of the piston? I highly doubt not enough valve guide clearance was the culprit.
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No way it was guide clearance. One of the first sets I installed I ran it on the hose double checked everything, took the boat for a 10 min run, then the customer sent me a video of a 10+ mile run wfo at 5500. I didn't touch those guides. Check cam timing again and verify lifter and guide clearance.
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2 Attachment(s)
[ATTACH=CONFIG]541409[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]541410[/ATTACH]
According to bob the tq should peak around 4600, I was 11.8:1-12.2:1 the whole time was not lean I have widebands... |
Tim, you detonated the piss out of the motor and it bent the intake valve over. Make sure you replace the intake valve in the cylinder next to it.
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Whos to say the guide clearance wasnt simply too tight , from a quality control standpoint ? Without physically checking it, you're taking someone's word for it.
While it certainly may or may not be the root cause of the failure, I certainly wouldn't write "improper guide clearance " off as a possibility, because someone else ran Afr heads with no issues. They need to be checked imo plain and simple, as well as the valve jobs. Exact reason why Id rather buy my heads bare, and have my machine shop assemble them. |
Originally Posted by Black Baja
(Post 4308440)
Tim, you detonated the piss out of the motor and it bent the intake valve over. Make sure you replace the intake valve in the cylinder next to it.
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