funny how that always happens yet it runs perfectly! LOL ;)

First head showed up today, rest of the goodies should be here tomorrow. A couple pictures:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]546964[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]546965[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]546966[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]546967[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]546968[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]546965[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]546969[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]546970[/ATTACH]

Couple more pics. I pulled one intake and one exhaust valve and measured guide clearance. .0015" on the intake, .0017" on the exhaust. I'm happy with that. Checked installed height and was satisfied with that as well.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]546983[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]546984[/ATTACH]

What are you doing PCM-wise for the first round of upgrades?

According to Raylar, with the HO ECM I can just raise my base fuel pressure to 51 and that is all that is needed. I don't really love that idea because now I am running an additional 8 psi of fuel pressure at idle, surely that is going to richen things up. I called Whipple, but that call really didn't get me anywhere, I am pretty sure I was talking to somebody who was just willing to sell me a canned stage 2 tune. I don't really want that either. I tried to explain that but didn't get very far. I want to keep my stock rev limiter and I don't want to only run 91 octane either. What I want is a calibration that is optimized for the Raylar heads and cam, that maybe tweaks timing for the better heads but still allows me to run 89 octane. Next time I talk to Raylar I am going to see if they have somebody better to talk to at Whipple than whoever it was I was talking to.

51psi sounds kind of high I think I am at 46 (I cant remember though). Keep in mind you will be close to 10 to 1 so running 89 will be tight but might be possible. The whipple stage 2 may allow you to run 89. I have been running 89 dock fuel for 2 years. I have a custom whipple HO 600 program that i assume is a stge 2 or more.

Mine have never pinged.


What headers will you be running? An O2 sensor might be in your future....

Looking good $hitbird!

BTW are they the ported heads?

89 isn't a problem to find, but I don't think there is a marina local to me selling 91 anymore, so it's kind of a problem. I would assume your base pressure is lower because you are custom tuned, but to keep from flashing the PCM you have to raise base fuel pressure. Maybe that will work perfect, but a speed density system running higher than stock fuel pressure when volumetric efficiency isn't higher than the previous setup (idle) will end up richer. I will see how it runs but I am really anal about little stuff like that so it will probably drive me crazy. I really just need somebody at Whipple who is willing to hear me out for what I have and what I want, I am sure it is something they have done before and they probably have a map made already.

And the heads I have are the full CNC ported heads, not the extreme ported version they have, as that is really overkill for what i am doing.

This year I am running the stock exhaust but will be extending the risers about 12 inches. Next year it is a toss up between the CMI sport tubes or the Dana flow torque exhaust. I have plenty of time to decide.

Thanks peckerhead!

It was 2-3 years ago but I talked to Dustin. Yes, they have enough programs to give you some options and then some. If you deck you blocks and go with the thin head gaskets you migh have to run 91 - theres only one way to find out. Again, there are work arounds. I think thats why I ran a cooler thermostat with my tune.

Well, there are some 8.1L resources here. I know BobL did good amt of Raylar (and whipple SC) upgrades.

Sutphen30 is on MA southshore and done some 8.1L upgrades. Ported heads, SC's, and etc...plus he programs (MEFI / Big Stuff/ etc) the FI on many of the motors he and the shop he works / worked for had put together.

If live programming is a possibility maybe he's for hire if you travel down to that area ?

Just throwing stuff out there.

I am running the .040" Cometic head gaskets. I have no interests in getting aggressive with the tune at all, I know the pistons will bite me if I do.

Problem is that nobody can tune the 555 ECM except for Whipple. About the only adjustment I can make is fuel pressure.

Ah fawk - forgot it's the 666ECM....I mean the 555ECM....No, in reality it really is a 666 ECM. LOL.

Mark Boos can help you out on a tune. Pretty sure he is 555 capable. .

I had the same experience dealing with them on my Stage 2 tune. Dustin was unavailable to talk, and all you get from Dennis is canned answers that you can read off their website. All of my questions were answered by bobl of former FTM. He answered all my questions on his own time. Great guy!
Whipple's stage 2 tune was designed around the stock 496, though it will work on the Raylar 525 package. More timing, more spark and tuned AF/R. 12.5-1 AFR @ WOT, 14-1 at part throttle, I've logged 32-34* timing thru the midrange and 30-32* at WOT. Stock was 24*.

Whipple can supply a custom tune for your setup, you must supply the RPM, MAP, AF/R at 500 rpm increments. I know Dustin has made tunes for former 525 packages, hopefully one of those will be what you need.

I'm going to buy a used set of 496 risers and weld 02 bungs in. After I install the heads and intake, I'm going to have Whipple tweak my Stage 2 for the upgrades.

Yeah, Dennis is who I talked to. He couldn't have seemed more disinterested in the conversation. It was eerily similar to the last time I talked to Comp Cams, minus the middle east accent.

I am not looking for something extremely out of the ordinary, I just don't want to be chained to 91 octane as it is hard to come by on my lake and I don't want to have to pull the boat out of the water every time I need fuel. Maybe I will try PM'ing Dustin to see if he can help me out. I know BobL is pretty much done with performance boats, I don't want to bother him about this if I don't have to.

Ahhh, ok, so you are running stock bottom ends till next year.

You know Diamond makes forged pistons that will go on the stock rods. If you get more power you will want to "enjoy" it. For the slight upcharge, it may be worth it rather than sending a rod thru the block.

This pile of aluminum was a piston :)

You scare the chit out of me with those pictures every time you post them. :eek: I think I read from one of your posts that mess was caused by a dropped valve, correct? I am waiting to do a whole bottom end next season. I want to put the stroker rotating assembly in it and go with the stronger crank, rods, and pistons.

The rest of the parts came in this morning. I put the cam in and checked it with the degree wheel. It is off by about 1-1.5 degrees using the stock chain and gears. There is a little slop in there, not a whole lot but enough that it is probably throwing things off a bit. New chains will be going in when I do the bottom end.

Run the chit out of it. You can buy 496/8.1 blocks on Craigslist for about $200 :)

Can you give me a link to one of the 200.00 dollar 8.1 blocks .I need one and I haven't seen a price anywhere close to that .Not kidding .I will pay you a finders fee for a good one..Don't need a non useable one

I already have a spare shortblock in storage. It needs to be done, but it is all there if I start spitting parts. :coolcowboy:

Better yet, buy a Dart Gen 7 with 4.5 inch bore.

The high versus low octane argument has been tested by the guys at Full Throttle Marine.

Just a couple of personal experiences. I fell for the ridiculous hp gain claims of the CMI headers so I paid nearly $5,000 for a set for my 496 HO Donzi 22 Classic. I saw absolutely ZERO gain in top end or mid-range. $5,000 down the toilet. My top speed was still 73. After running my options by a LOT of people I PAID $20,000 for a low hour 525 EFI. Boat runs 83-85 with a best recorded speed of 85.8 and I burn 87 octane fuel. A friend did the Raylar 525 kit in the same model boat and could not hit 80. He also still had all of the inferior pistons, rods, crank etc. That is why I stated early in this thread that Matt should have gone with the 525s and rebuilt them or switch to 502s. He took the plunge and committed to the 496. Now if everything is swapped out in this engine and it is built to proper tolerances then it should perform well. It will for sure perform well with a Pro-Charger and all new rotating assembly. I am not a fan of the 496 after talking about it with a lot of engine builders and other people in the know. It can probably be made to work reliably if everything is done and I do wish Matt the best. I am eagerly following this thread. Matt, I am not beating you up for going with the 496 and I hope it works out well. Ray would always get mad at me when I'd advise people to lose the 496 and go with a 502 based engine. He tried but he wasn't real good at marketing.

Is that Raylar 525 intake manifold pictured in the article the one that is no longer made?

So what is the engine builders issue with the 496? I don't see what the big problem with these engines is, other than a few obscure parts and the locked up 555 ecm

It differs from the 454/502 engine and everyone told me that it would become a "white elephant". Sure enough, it was discontinued and Mercury is back to the 502 crate engine.

3 Childhood - as you probably know, but worth mentioning to people that may not, the 525 Merc 502 actually dyno's closer to 560 or so. So, hp rating vs hp rating, the 502 based 525 will beat that 496 525 (speed wise) because of that alone.

A lot of engine builders in the know probably told Excess Energy he was crazy to use FORD but he did.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/v...-upgrades.html

Everybody told Precision that small blocks wouldnt work and he did it anyway too.
http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/f...esnt-work.html

FWIW it cost me around $26,000 to build both my 600's that have been reliable for 200+ hours.

Sometimes its fun to break away from normal.

Yes, I'm aware of that but many people are not. Again, I'm not bashing anyone. I'm sure the 496 can be made to perform and I wish Matt the best.

Keith, I think the 600 package is the way to go and I'm glad yours worked out well.

He's correct about the 496. If you're looking for bulletproof out of the box, the stock heads are junk, the stock intake manifold doesn't flow well and the stock 496 rotating assembly likes to grenade (as we've seen countless times now on this forum). This engine needs a lot of parts to be a 600hp engine but runs very reliably if you're willing to build one.

Again correct, Ray had an axe to grind and wasn't very good at "marketing." If you want to build old school 502s, cool! Frankly, we don't care what generation BBC engine you build. If you want to build a fuel injected GEN 7 496, we offer parts to make them better, thats all.

The cool gap intake manifold (525 / 600 kits) is no longer available. There's not enough demand in the boat market for us to produce them. We've seen good results from modification of the stock intake manifolds and that is what we sell now for naturally aspirated engines. We also offer a velocity stack manifold made from billet aluminum, but they're custom made for each customer. Now we tell the boat guys who want more air to call Whipple and run a 3.3L blower on top of our parts - its a great way to make a casual 800hp.

No intentions of starting a fight or trouble here but..... Let's take each item one at a time -

I was all but thrown off this site quite a while back and pretty much lost interest but some other things have come along and well….

You can go back and read my posts about hp gains and headers from like 5 years or so ago??. I was (I believe) one of the first guys on here telling the world that headers are nice. I have them. I like them but they do NOT add any noticeable power to boat engines. I was clear on this and I had many people contact me personally. Quite a story on that but now it’s common knowledge that spending 5k for exhaust is not gonna make you go faster. I’m sincerely sorry for your experience and I tried all I could to help others catch on before lots more went out and fell for that claim (CMI – Mercury; who cares right?).

Regarding your friend who did the Raylar Kit and saw less than what you were expecting - Their stuff DOES work and it does what they say it’s supposed to. BUT, this requires the boat owner to go to the end. I’m not going to mention names but many people on this forum have contacted me about my results and what we did here. Hardly ANY of them ever want to listen entirely or do all that’s required to make the boat do what they want. I don’t know it all and I try not to ever give false or misleading advice but I can tell you everything we’ve learned was done the hard way. Usually, you find that the first problem to fix is not the hardware or parts. It’s “the guy” messing with it. Talking to a lot of people and engine builders can be a good thing but if you don’t talk to people who have done anything much with this platform then you are kinda screwin’ yourself because I never met an engine builder who said anything good about something that he doesn’t do ‘all the time’.

If Matt had the luxury of simply tossing everything he already owned and paid for in the trash then it’s a useless argument. If he did not have that luxury, then the 8.1 will serve him fine while saving a lot of other investment.

Hardly anyone seems to ever acknowledge the fact that the blue engines are simply designed and built strictly for a class. That’s it. So, then it’s fair to say that many if not all, of them are over-built for the power that’s advertised. The big difference is they make that advertised power for a long time (usually if properly maintained & excluding exhaust leaks). This style of building helped promote fair racing among boats and created an industry standard platform where everyone stood a chance and you had a benchmark comparison.

As far as how you were treated by Ray; yeah, there are a lot of folks out there who don’t much care for that individual but he is no longer tied to the product or company and hasn’t been for long time.

Back to work; have a nice day! 

Thanks Larry. Good to see you posting here and following this build. SDFever, thanks.

U2! You guys got lucky today. To see larry type a post that long would put you in stitches :-)

I just finished the new gen vii. 4.5 stroke and 4.560 bore with larry's heads, 105mm etc. I'll let ya know what it does in the boat. Should be back together within 2 weeks or less. I also bought the 'Drive Guardian' from MDC. Can't wait to see how long my gears last now.. It might pencil -

I never thought you were beating up on me, I dig your Donzi, and have watched a couple of videos of that 525 barking on youtube. Truth is, if I had only one motor I probably would have bought a 525, but I have twins, and I just couldn't swing the coin to buy two used 525's and refresh them.

Larry has been great to deal with, and I am impressed with what I have bought. There is nothing magical here just the same recipe that makes power on every other big block. I will say the heads look very, very nice. The cam would appear to be ground by cam motion, and I like what I saw there. It's hard to tell how much was done to the intake, but what I can see looks to be done nicely. An Accufab 90mm throttle body is about the only obvious thing that lets you know the motor isn't stock, you can hardly see the heads under everything.

I only had one hitch in this whole project, and that is the front crossover pipe. With the thinner head gaskets the bolt holes just won't quite line up. I ended up opening the bolt holes up to 1/2 inch to get things copacetic. Other than that everything fit perfect, lined up right, and went together properly. I am waiting on my Rinda to get here to properly dial in the bypass hole in the throttle body and set the TPS properly. It certainly sounds healthier than a stock 496 HO, I am very much looking forward to the next phase when I can really put some cam to it and a nice exhaust on it. I set the fuel pressure, hit the starter, and it fired up nearly instantly. The only gaskets I replaced were the exhaust gaskets and the intake gaskets, and I could have probably reused them if I wanted to, but they seemed iffy so I replaced them. The only thing I need to find now is a flame arrester to fit this throttle body, the stock one is way too small.

https://youtu.be/WWG8BEXrgIY

Hacksaww the slits in the flame arrestor about 1/4 inch more. Then force them on. They will deform a little.

That was fast!:eekdrop::eek:

Whoa whoa whoa? Wait a minute!


Did you dyno it? If you didnt dyno it what do you expect it to make?
Pictures?
What block?
What cam? (213?)
What heads? (Extreme?)