Comp Cams - Issues with rocker arms, premature failure.
 

It was recommended that I post this here from input from the OSO community. I have a build thread in the Formula Section as well. But here is the specs...

GEN VI 454 , .030 Over, SRP +23 CC Pistons, 088 Heads, Comp Cams K-01-451-8 Kit with Magnum Roller Tip Rocker. < 1 Hour of run time on the engine.

Most of all the rocker arm pivot balls that are under the locking nut have been prematurely worn to different degrees (<1 Hour of run time) and the red lubricant that they provided and I applied during the build was no where to be found. Push rods seem to be in good shape, not bent or damaged. I have found small fingernail tip sized pieces sitting in the little pockets on the top of the heads. These pieces are from the thin metal spiral bushing (Spring Dampener?) that goes in between the inner and the outer valve spring, it is the last 1/2" of the bottom of the spiral. All of the metal particulates I found were from the pivot balls. It is obvious that the rockers got really hot during operation and developed carbon on the surface. The roller tips are also discolored from the heat. It appears they are not receiving proper lubrication during operation however, during the build, everything was primed and rotated. While the engine was running there was good oil pressure (> 40 PSI) and when I adjusted the valves, oil was coming up through the push rod on all rockers. Ignore the milky oil on top of the head, this is left over from the first start when the valves were hanging open, had some water in the oil but after 3 hours cleaning out the oil system, the oil in the sump is clean as can be when this occurred. Any ideas outside of "brand bashing" is welcomed. Thanks!

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I plan on calling Comp Cams this morning to discuss a resolution and to see if they have an alternate to the stamped roller tip rocker arms that utilize poly locks. Hopefully they are willing to help me out here. I followed their instructions to the "T" and even called them during the build to confirm and clarify a few steps. I would like to go to a full roller rocker arm and I found a set of Crane on Craigslist for a good deal but they are 1.7 and not 1.72 ratio so I am not sure if they will work with that Camshaft that I have. Here is the ad, http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/n...606135760.html

Even if you believe their parts have manufacturing defect, the engine was started and run shortly with rockers that where adjusted too tight. Plus, this caused water reversion getting water into the oil.

Even the spring dampers broke.

And you want to get them to warranty the rockers or more ? I don't see it.

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With all those pieces of metal in the oil / engine, you may want to pull then engine completely apart, check for other damage, and completely clean everything.

While you are doing this, you may want to decide on another angle of attack,not just with parts, but with engine assembly techniques and etc.

Not a rag on, but a major suggestion.

Judging by the heat in those rockers, there is no way that was a part failure. On top of what SB said, double check your valvetrain geometry, something is very wrong here.

You need to be adjusting the valves during assembly, not on a running engine afterwards. My feelings are that's what started your whole problem. Never understood why people would ever use that method. As SB said, that engine needs to be completely disassembled, cleaned and inspected.

Umm. I honestly don't know where to begin. I can't say anything bad about those rockers as I have no experience with them but not without reason. Definitely looks like oil got hot also. Looks like it's baked on parts of the rocker, stud and nut. Taking 1/2 hr to adjust valve lash properly prior to start up is highly recommended. Did you ck for pushrod length? The red lube you mentioned disappears during engine warm up. SB pretty much covered it but definitely pull it and throughly clean each and every part before reassembly. Clean, clean clean. Basically start over and get some full roller cranes or scorpions. Don't get to down. Chit happens and lessons learned.

Btw don't forget to clean under sides of pistons also. Go through everything including oil passages etc. it would be nice to think any remaining debris would be laying on the bottom of pan but doubtful. Pieces like that like to make their way down btwn rods. Those shavings can end up anywhere.

I'll ask,,what cam and lift.also,who's/what lifters and where did they come from.

Above he said K-01-451-8 Kit
http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/c...?csid=596&sb=2

He got the comp full K kit. 230/236 ,547 . 547 112LSA hydraulic roller
cam.springsm timing gear, etc, etc - doesn't come with lifters
also got the GEN VI rocker arm conversion kit (rockers. studs, pushrods

Thanks for the input everyone. I should of clarified a bit more. This is my first BBC engine build and I adjusted the valves too tight during the assembly phase which was noticed and corrected however, it was too late at that point. You have to start somewhere and this is just a learning experience for me. Additionally, I believe Comp Cams have a great product and great support. I wouldn't expect them to warranty anything and I stated that when I spoke with them yesterday, I just wanted their input on the situation (other than you didn't do something right) which they provided based on the pictures. They do want the rocker arms back to verify that it is not a manufacturing defect with the machined oil gallery as they said it's rare, but has happened before especially since it wasn't all of the rockers that had an issue on my installation.

I was mainly posting this for everyone's thoughts on a cause and additional suggestions for me to avoid this in the future. I also wanted to get this on the OSO forum in case another amateur engine builder comes across this, they can see my experience. Since it will be raining here this weekend, the engine should be getting pulled tonight for a tear down and inspection. All the valve train parts are Comp Cams (K-01-451-8), FYI. I am also going to check out the lubrication system as it is apparent that there was a lack a lubrication at some point while running causing the damage and carbon on the components. Once again, I appreciate everyone's suggestions and I will provide an update when available. I was planning on upgrading the rocker arms and such during this time because I need to buy new parts anyway. Not because I am unhappy with Comp Cams.

I'd be inclined to replace the lifters as they may have been damaged from over tightening the rockers.this could have help starve the top end of oil.was the oil non synth.?

Refer to this when adjusting your rockers

http://www.cranecams.com/pdf-tech-tips/hydro-lift.pdf

This is the crane version which should work for other Manufacturers as well.

When lashing valves with new hydraulic lifters, its very easy to make the mistake of going to zero preload instead of zero lash because the spring in the lifter that holds it up in the absence of oil pressure is very light. What then happens, is another half to one turn is added, and the valve hangs open.

For that reason, I don't like spinning the pushrod to "feel" for when the lash is at zero. I like to jiggle it up and down until lash is gone. You may already know this, but thought I'd share my experience with it.

I have also found a lot of builders like to drill small holes in the front oil gallery plugs to lubricate the back side of cam gear, that will also starve the top for oil, it works ok with roller rockers in most cases , but not stamped steel, with a roller tip. Good luck

All the mercury performance engines and possibly all BBC have a hole in the front plugs stock.

Definitely completed the initial adjustment with the spin method and had a gut feeling that it was too tight. You live and you learn. I will be ordering new lifters for sure. Small price to pay in my opinion. I am hoping the rain holds out this evening to get it disassembled.

"FYI. I am also going to check out the lubrication system as it is apparent that there was a lack a lubrication at some point while running causing the damage and carbon on the components. "
Not necessarily a lack of lubrication, the heat could also have come from the parts in the valve train making contact when they are supposed to be separated by a film of oil.

I agree. I would use a moly paste (like flat tappet break in moly paste) on the balls/sockets. I never liked the idea of regular engine assembly lube here. It is not a bearing !

But, I never bought into steel rockers (or roller tipped one's) unless restricted rules racing (sbc's) forced you. [But, we'd keep more oil to them with 'Kool Nuts.'

I like use a good assembly GREASE on that stuff.

I agree with your statement all plugs have a hole, very small hole. When engine builder hot tanks block and replaces plugs , they re drill a new hole and sometimes it's to large, and starves the top end for oil with a stamp steel rocker, full roller rocker requires less oil, then a stamp steel.

I used those rockers ONCE, gen 6 502 with stock cam, lifters and springs. At 120 hours when I tore it down to freshen and upgrade it most the rocker balls were galled blue and rockers were burnt. One rocker ball was split in half but miraculously hadn't came out of rocker. Never again, I used them because I was on a buget and thought it was the only thing that would clear stock valve covers (NOT TRUE). A local engine buildr also used them on a Pontiac, the oil holes were located wrong and oil would shoot out of them miissing the spings and rocker balls, they turned blue on dyno and were vaprizing the oil, literally had oil smoke coming out of valve covers because when it did hit them it was almost on fire. Never again, only time I know of anyone getting them to work very long was on sbc circle track cars with kool nuts, fwiw, Smitty

And don't put that plug on the back side of the block by the freeze plug...
It will make a mess in the shop when you prime the it!

Ya I herd someone used that plug in a sbc under the head. LOL That's a *****. Give you credit for owning up to it. I don't know what this guy did but he fd upd. All good he learned the hard way I have too.

I kind of figured as much that's why I made note to not get down on yourself. Might be a little costly but I've seen much worse happen with newbies. We've all made mistakes at one point or another building engines. I think most would agree with that at some point in their life or perhaps their not being honest or they simply haven't even built an engine. I was taught at very young age from one of the most meticulous engine builders I've met even to this day. When I mentioned clean, clean, clean in earlier post that of course is extremely important however actually got me in trouble many years ago on a build.

After I got my rotating assembly back from machine shop having balanced I was adiment about recleaning everything before assemble so I soaked my Pistons, rods, crank, rings etc. So to make a long story short I ran the engine for about 3 minutes during cam brake before it locked up. Would not even roll over. I was dumb founded as to what I could have possibly done wrong or what broke etc as I had built several engines without failure. Needless to say what I had completely forgotten prior to assemble was to relubricate piston pins. When I soaked/recleaned Pistons and rods it had desolved the assembly lube. It finally dawned on me what I had failed to do once I got over the initial shock of having to pull the engine and do a complete tear down.

I was able to save the pistons with honing slightly over acceptable clearance but did have to replace the pins. Needless to say this hurt my pride more so than my wallet however it was a learning lesson. You can never be overly conscientious when it comes to building engines and don't get distracted. Sometime with our busy lives we get involved with many things going on at once. It happens. I am still overly cautious with not only over cleaning parts but also assembling in an exceptionally clean shop. Back to the Pistons and rods if you ever run into such a thing just put your assembled Pistons and rods in the oven at 200 degrees and oil your pins while moving rod side to side and rotating until they are lubed well. I use assembly lube.

Most often I don't assemble them until ready for install however things don't always work out the way you'd like so sometimes they may sit on the shelf before install potentially collecting who knows what. In which case have plenty of siran wrap and clean boxes on hand.

Just thought I'd share this as it may help you or others from making the same mistake as I.

Something I always do when installing new hydraulic lifters which I haven't heard talked about much on here is I will take a container of the oil type I plan on running in the engine. Then holding a lifter submerged in the oil I will pump it slowly with a pushrod until bubbles stop coming out of it and it is pumped up solid. Then I install it in the engine. It now will not collapse on you so easily when your adjusting the valve. I also adjust both valves on each cylinder with the piston in firing position at TDC. Start with #1 cylinder in firing position, timing mark on "0". Adjust both valves. Then turn the crank 90 degrees and adjust both valves on the next cylinder in the firing order. Continue till all have been adjusted. This method is very accurate and you only turn the engine over 2 revolutions. Another thing is to always install your valve train before putting on your intake manifold so you can clearly see when the pushrod has zero end play to the lifter.

http://www.dodgecharger.com/forum/in...0;attach=14425

Same applies for a Chevrolet.

That cam didn't have the 4/7 swap did it???

I never really saw the advantage of using the roller tip rocker arms over a good set of the stamped steel units (long slot) for moderate and low lift cams. GM was running these rockers for decades with cams up to around .550 lift with few failures. If you are going to upgrade, spend the extra coin for full roller rockers - good ones, not the cheap Chinese knockoffs.