500 efi noise re-visited
 

So we have been dealing with valve train noise ever since motors were rebuilt. Yesterday we popped covers and ran with them off. Trying to pin point problematic lifter. We learned a few new things:

1. Lifter noise comes and goes. Will go away for a minute or two then return. Then goes away etc. does this at cold and hot.

2. Felt for vertical play in all the rockers, didn't feel any.

3. Re-adjusted valve lash on several what we thought problematic valves, no change.

4. Put fingers on each rocker as it made the noise in attempts to take out valve train slop. Did nothing. Nor did any feel loose.

Kinda of stumped. Short of tearing the top end down to inspect lifters not sure what else to do. We checked geometry everything looks good. Tips were on the center of every valve as we cranked over the motor. We didn't check all of the push rods maybe one is bent? But noise wouldn't come and go? Only thing I can think of is lifter bleeding down then pumping up again? Oil pressure is 45-55 psi. Note we have 2 motors and both do the same exact thing.

At least you dug into it to confirm what was going on. Without a doubt it would drive nuts also even if THEY claim no big deal, shut the hatch and go back to boating. I just don't have a place for noise like that and personally feel in the long run premature wear will show up somewhere. Did you call the lifter company yet? If I recall these were the same lifter as 4603 but different brand. I think just for a little assurance I'd confirm the lifter that the efi uses and go with them. You were using the stock efi cam spring correct? Sorry I had a busy week and can't remember 100% of your other thread. Unless for some odd reason the company your using now says this goes away after so many miles and or hours. Even then I'd be a little skeptical just cause this would naturally be the easiest thing for them to say amd just hope you go away and just get use to the issue at hand.

Are you able to confirm throughout the rpm when the noise all together goes away. If not you have to wonder how much hp this is robbing also. I recall posting on your other thread about the problems I had with some valvetrain problems due to custom ground hyd cams. I went with all the correct recommendations and had issues issues but we caught it right away thanks to the dyno. My bsfc were all over the map from pull to pull. Ended up being a combination of things but where it stemmed from was an aggressive lobe comp and I had agreed to use. I probably could have gotten the right combo with springs and lifters to solve the problem and remained hyd but just changed springs and went with solid rollers. Problem solved. Competition cams was a little baffled by outcome however they learned something also. It was frustrating and costly however I didn't have the time try this, try that, different configurations as mentioned. I just wanted to be done with it. Not recommending you to do this what so ever as your combo is very common and without a doubt in my opinion is the lifters. I just thought I'd let you know your not alone at all with your problem. There has to be multiple lifters that will work just fine but once again to be safe I'd just use whatever comes on the 500 efi. It's pretty amazing when dig right down into it how many different part numbers there are for hyd lifters matching to correct lobes/cams. While I was surfing some BBC hyd roller shelf cams a while back I was pretty surprised with some even though the cams were so similar but the ramp speeds etc a little different.

Talked to the lifter company all week. Only thing they offered is for me to return them for inspection. If found faulty they would send me new ones but wouldn't cover labor. Shocker there.

Agreed the noise is unacceptable. It will ultimately beat itself to death over time.

You are right we left stock cam in and went with RL931 which are rebranded morels.

The interesting part is both motors do it. Same noise. Same intermittency. Strange but if lifters are from same lot it could be there are a few bad ones. But why would they pump up then bleed down? The inconsistency of it makes me think it's not a pre load issue. And it's not debris in the lifter.

With regard to the spring we went with isky 8205 plus which many have used on these forums. We didn't use a standard GM lifter because spring pressure was bumped to 160#. It's a known fact that Mercury set super low spring pressures from factory. Usually 120#. Problem is instability in the valve train. 160# isn't abnormally high but was told to use better lifters with this setup.

I thought the 500EFI used Crane .300 long body lifters . Not GM.

I heard the same thing from crower when I had failure. Send them all in and they will check each one and if they found a bad one they'd replace. Pretty common practice. Not always what you want to hear though I understand.

What I find really strange though is the consistency between the two engines. Wtf... I would imagine this has you scratching your head. With that said I'm sure you can understand why I did what I did. For starters as I'm sure you'd agree is not to use those lifters at least with the springs. I'm sure they'd be fine with lifter spring pressures. But like you said 160 isn't a bunch by any means but enough to obviously be a concern with these. What is your open pressure? Around 450?

A thought that just come to mind given the two engines reacting the same is it possible with certain cylinders having more pressures at some point of the rotation due to some closing, some opening, etc, etc. kinda like when you roll engine over with no plugs in it with the top end assembled you can feel the more difficult parts of the rotation from springs opening as well as relief from closing. You get the idea what I'm saying. So is it possible some lifters are seeing more pressures at certain points of the revolution? Obviously high rpm with this analogy would go out the window but yet does it still exist? Just a though and maybe it's my hangover today but think about it? Maybe I am out to lunch but...

I guess what I'm trying to say do some lifters see more pressures than others and if they are questionable with the said spring pressures could this play a part? I wouldn't think it would be an issue with the 8205's plus but is it?

Sorry you are right. Long body retrofit cranes. They are not GM's.

These lifters are rated for a lot more than 160. I think they can do over 200#

how far after 0 lash are they turned down

If I recall from his previous thread he was 1 1/4 plus or minus

http://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/g...r-preload.html


Another thread from 2012 with RL931 lifters. Maybe pm OP and see what he did to resolve the problem. Looks like his last post was on 4/16/16 so he's still active.

Thanks for the reference. I've read that one. Think I've read every lifter thread on this website and yellowbullet/Chevelle/etc.

They were originally set to 3/4. Sounded like a freaking tractor. Then turned them down another quarter and quieted down some. Still have noise that comes and goes.

It's amazing how much info you can gather on something we always just took for granted and wouldn't expect to have such failures with. You end up learning more than you thought imaginable. Seriously a lifter. Wtf. I understand to a degree however years ago I never recall being such an issue. Is it possible the lifters just haven't kept up with the ongoing cam lobe design/changes specs etc or is it the poor quality? Quality control? I'm not saying all companies of course but obviously is a problem these days.

I do notice yellowbullet form has some pretty good info for the most part at least on the subjects I've gathered info on from time to time. We'll be sure and keep us informed and good luck.

I think the tolerances in the lifter are too close, and they don't work well with thicker oils needed in a marine engine. Seems every thread I've read on these on auto forums that went with a light oil, and when we put light oil in these engines the noise went away.

Mild thunder and a few others are running them with straight 40 and straight 50 without any issues. Ours sounds like there is 1 or 2 acting up. Not all of them.

If it were an oil problem it would always be there, not come and go? I don't know what to think anymore.

Do you have at least an hour run time on it?

12-15 hours. Won't run it anymore until it's fixed.

Did you set up your heads or did somebody else do them? Although I agree with you on the spring pressures are not accessive however just what if you put a +.050 locks on one engine to lighten the pressures a bit. Just to try and see if it solves the problem? It would be a inexpensive and real quick thing to do outside of changing your lifters.

Probably irrelevant but what kind of roller rockers are you using?

Roller rockers are gold crane, we're not changed as part of the top end rebuild.

I actually just talked to a guy in MA that just blew an engine with the same symptoms and same lifters. Likely a different setup. I sent him videos and his motors sounded identical.

Who makes these, I think you referred to them as knock off morels ??

I never said they were knock off morels. I said these were RL931 which are made by morel. Just rebranded.

RL931 = Morel 4603 = Howard 91162

Morel makes for almost everyone including lunatai, cam motion, PBM, erson, Howard, etc. I put in for warranty with Erson and he said he needed to talk to morel. I'll copy and paste his email later.

Morel makes many lifters. I honestly am not sure how they go about it etc however have read they make some of Howard's also. Thing is there not cheap either.

These were $700 lifters

I see, thanks for the correction, well... maybe there making so many that the quality is suffering, Im running Morels

I read that there are actually just a handful of lifter manufacturers. I can't confirm it but certainly wouldn't surprise me. It sucks for the OP though as I am pretty certain he won't get credit for them and I wouldn't trust them at this point anyway. Another 2k plus with gaskets etc and a lot of labor.

If/when you end up resolving the problem with some red zones or what ever I would be a huge pain in erson's azz. Sounds like this is a known ongoing problem with some of their lifters. they do have some good cam grinds for what it's worth.

Pbm...

A lot of companies are switching. Isky is one of many.

Dang man, all these lifter issues,what would I choose if I was to do a rebuild........I fired the port engine on the hose at the house two weeks a go and it made some noise, shut it off and restarted and it was fine.

What did you rebuild with? I'm thinking going Johnson. Everyone I've talked too recommended them.

Isky, Crower, and Teague , amongs others, have gone here. http://johnsonlifters.com/Distributors.aspx

Check out full listing under the map.

Hopefully we get more feedback as time goes on.

I just put in new Johnson lifters along with a new cam. Lifters were stock spec replacement for the GM lifters and cam is a crane 741. 3/4 turn after zero lash. No issues as of yet. Hope you get this solved sooner than later.

Pretend you weren't on this thread.

Thanks. Paying someone to re-do everything. Sweet. The lifter company isn't paying for any labor. Shocker.

They going to reimburse you for the lifters? Btw keep us informed on what you end up with as well as the outcome.

Good luck and sorry for your troubles.

What are you going with for lifters this time?

Threads like these make me want to go solid roller next time.

Yep, spent $8000 for top end rebuilds only to spend another likely $3000 to get it fixed. So fuggin pissed

My like above is actually I understand and right with you. Been in these situations a couple too many times.

Every year I had wished GM would make a bad azz HR lifter for the BBC's like they do for the sbc. Cherry on top is the GM SBC lifters are cheap.