NEW XR/IMCO 3 bad input seals? NOT
 

Ok, from the top. Thank you everyone in advance for your input and help. Some preliminary info; 1997 28' Eliminator V with a 502. Last spring I installed hydraulic steering and a Whipple to get things moving. With the advice of everyone here, I ordered a brand new XR upper with a 2" IMCO polished shorty from BAM Marine, so I could hopefully avoid drive break downs and keep the stock Bravo as a backup. It showed up the week after 4th of July and it looked great. I also installed a semrek drive shower that I bought from a fellow OSO member MIKEHTMSR24.
The second weekend out, the low oil buzzer went off and by the time I got back to load, I had to fill it 5 times. NOW guess where the oil is? You guessed it, In the bottom of my hull. Ok, I am annoyed, but I have a backup and this kind of thing happens. It took me 3 hours to clean out the engine compartment.
So I called Marc at BAM and we work out a deal to have a local shop install a new input shaft seal. They said that the seal wasn't installed all the way from the Mercruiser and it was rubbing on the drive shaft yoke. Everything's ok now.
2 weeks later, the low oil buzzer went off and by the time I got back to load, I had to fill it 3 times. SAME problem, Where's the oil? You know!
I called Marc again and he said to send the drive back to him. So I found a place to band the drive on to the pallet and shipped the drive back to BAM. I installed the old Bravo and went to LOTO for the SHOTOUT. It was AWSOME by the way.
So Marc calls me and say's that the mechanic here didn't install the seal correctly and that someone had to pay him for the repair this time because Merc will only pay for warranty 1 time for the same problem. So I told him I would pay for it. $388
I installed the drive last week and took it out for about 1 1/2 hours and all was ok. Yesterday, My wife and I take the boat out and go about 45 minutes and WHAMO, the low oil buzzer went off. I just removed the drive and YOU guessed it, SAME problem.
The problem appears to be that the seal is getting pushed out of the housing and when it goes out far enough then it rubs on the yoke, and the rest is history.
Marc you will be getting a call tomorrow if you read this. I'm not mad at BAM, but I am pissed about the situation.
I bought this thing to avoid problems and all it has brought me is grief. At this point I don't even want the same drive back, because I feel that it is faulty and I'm sick of dealing with it. 2-3 hours to clean out the hull, and $30 for oil every time. Now the polished lower looks like crap also, from all the work and shipping. It has scratches and rub marks all over it. :(

Is it too much to ask for, to have Mercruiser replace this XR, because I don't want the same one back. Any ideas, anyone! Is this what is called a LEMON

Has anyone ever experienced this kind of problem? What could cause this, pressure inside the case? Wouldn't that kind of pressure just blow out the seal. Or is the problem a vibration that is causing the seal to vibrate outward. :confused:

Thanks, any and all ideas and comments would be appreciated.

Rockie, needless to say I am not happy to hear about your repeated problem. I will be curious to see if anyone else has experienced this.

I will make some calls today to Merc and see if they have any ideas. I wish I had run in to this before so I had a conclusive answer. I know that out of all the drives we have sold this is the first time we have had this happen. I don't know if that makes you feel better or worse, but once we figure out what it is that should be the end of it. Sorry to say but we just have not looked at it hard enough and jumped to some wrong conclusions.

I will talk to you later.

MBam-I am assuming when you talk to Merc you are also going to see about getting 28 Elim's $388 back.

I am currious about merc's policy about only paying once for a repair. I agree that merc does not want to pay for shotty workmanship but why is it the customers fault. Should the drive have been taken back to the dealer that replaced the seal the first time? Then he could have tried to see why seal came back out. Maybe it was installed wrong the last time also? Total of installed wrong 3 times?

Thanks for the reply Marc and Turbojack. I know that chit happens even with new equipment. This is not a perfect world.
I am not as frustrated now after sleeping, but I had to do some venting last night or I was not going to get any sleep.
I am very curious if anyone has had this kind of problem with an outdrive before. I don't doubt BAM's ability, but I also don't doubt Merc's ability.
Turbo, I also agree that Merc should step up, because BAM Marine shouldn't have to pay the price for a manufactures defect. Marc doesn't make that much money on a drive sale. He does help out a lot of us here on OSO for free and that is worth alot.
I know that there is something else wrong. I think that is pretty evident.
I guess we will see what Marc can find out from Mercruiser, but still, this can't be the only one in existence that has done this.

Thanks, and keep on smiling :D :D :D :D :D :D

OH yea, Turbojack. The seal wasn't installed wrong 3 times, I am quite confident about that. It pressure tested and vacumm tested ok all 3 times. and when you look at it the seal is right where it is supposed to be, and not rubbing on the yoke. Somehow something is causing it to be pushed out, but how, it is beat in there with a hammer and a seal installing tool.
I am so confused :confused: :confused:

I had a seal blow and it filled the bellows with oil. Something had plugged the vent to the reservoir. The vent was plugged so much the oil in the reservoir couldn't refill the drive, like the oil level in the bottle never went down! I was lucky we took the drive off for something else. I understand the O ring can cock and cause the seal to push out! Hope this may help. JB

Thanks for the info JB. I filled the drive the second time from the bottom all the way, even the reservoir. When the seal goes, it only takes about 5 minutes to empty the reservoir. Last time, it was full and I just bolted it on. Once the assembly is installed can the o-ring move?
Once installed, you can actually put a feeler gauge in between the seal and the yoke and spin it around to check the clearance.
I just checked the clearance and I can't even get my .001 guage in between. So I went to my old Bravo and put a .010 feeler gauge in between and could spin the yoke all the way around with no friction.
Next question, is the whole seal (metal and all) moving out or just the rubber part being pushed out.
How much pressure can the seal hold vers's how much pressure the plastic reservoir can hold. I just thought about this, Older drives never had a vent or reservoir tank. My old boat had an Alpha drive with neither and it was ok.
Anyway, just thinking out loud, ooor typing out loud!

After reading JB's post remined me that someone else was having problems with drive oil going into the bellows. He said Merc was aware of it & if I remember correctly they had a replacement part for it. I think he also said on on the X's had this problem. Might do a search. I remember posting to that thread. Had to be in the last month or 2

i have had several xr drives do this.when the seal gets replaced you should also replace the seal carrier and check for clearance between the input yoke and the seal.we take a very small punch and put about 8 or 10 hits in the aluminum carrier at the edge of the seal to keep it from pushing out under pressure.they only seem to do this when they get very hot for extended periods of time.try a temp gauge to make sure that your drive isnt running to hot.i think that some kind of pressure relief cap on the res bottle would cure this problem

oil leak
 

typhoon had xr drive oil leak posted on 9/23/02

I always thought the 2" lower voided mercs waranty.:confused:

I talked to Max Works the other day and he mentioned a problem due to the straight cut xr gears.. he says he has a fix for it.. might be worth a call.

good luck, dont get discouraged..

Dick

Thanks for all the info guy's. I looked at typhoon's post (Thanks 454hoho & turbojack) and it looks like this is a common problem and Merc probably has a fix.
Cord, I think you are right about the warranty, however it was bought with a 1 year warranty. I think the shops are covering the warranty on their own.
sterndrivespec, maybe you have the fix. That little ba$tard wouldn't come out then.
I'll make a couple of calls and get this resolved. :D :D :D :D

Then it will be about time to winterize, and that really sucks.

Eliminator, I had someone else fix my drive so I can't answer all you questions. I would check with Merc high perf and then check all the vent passages, seals, O-rings etc. Then follow all the other advice and maybe stake the seal housing as suggested above. JB

Never punch mark any Mercury parts, that is less than "shade tree" mech work! There is a new retainer (seal carrier) available that totally cures the quite common problem of the seal pushing out the front and rubbing the drive yoke on high rpm/torque load apps.. It incorporates a ridge to capture the seal. It is on back order though. If you use a decent commercial degreaser with primer "T" and 680 Loc-Tite in conjunction with removing "bore tite" (that green coating on seal) the problem disappears. Mercury "Warranty" on modified units and with exess HP? I think NOT!
Any high perf dealer with latest parts program (ver. 2.9) can give you the number of retainer. Unfortunately they neglected to give part number for the different seal. Call someone at Merc Racing Fond du Lac or Lake X for the number.

So then, is there a special tool to install this seal on an XR drive? Is there a different one for the standard Bravo One drive or are they all the same?

The old tool set seal flush with retainer. There is a new tool or you can modify old tool to set seal .020 below outside surface. Best to get new retainer. Be careful not to set it too deep or it will touch on the inside!

Can anyone find the part numbers and post them?? I need to solve the same problem. Would rather install a new carrier and proper seal than to chance it with the locktite..

Thanks

Dick

Boy, I look bad on this one. I should have known about this, but I had not run into this problem before.

The part number for the new retainer is 841026A2, they are on backorder until mid October. I do have a dozen on order.

Marc/Mbam,

My XR's have about 50 hours on them and the starboard drive resevior is getting low and I don't see any leakage from the outside---must be going in the bellows and sounds like this problem that 28Eliminator is having is creeping up on me and Mr. Gadgets too.

So this "retainer" you're speaking of is the new part that replaces the old retainer that leaks in the XR drive correct?

How much are the new retainers seals for the XR? Am I calling it the correct name?----a "retainer seal"?

Thanx

This is gonna sound dumb, but why doesn't the reservor vent? The fluid can only go down, but not up again. It's obviously done by design. I don't know how much pressure is built up at temp and maybe there is enoug air to take the expansion....

Is there an air pocket in the drive above the top vent screw? If there is, it would seem to me that filling the drive from the bottom all the way up until the reservor fills may be a bad thing..

Marc,

Is this something that should be done to my drive on order? Might as well get it over with, if it is likely to be a problem. What do you think?

Yea, but yet you look really good because you havn't dropped the ball and are going to fix the problem. What more can a customer ask for?

I appreciate you finding that number Marc.

I can ask one more question of you.... What is the part number for the seal itself. And is it a double lip seal??

Thanks for the part number on the retainer.. what will be the cost on one. You can email me if you like. But I expect to be needing one, and a new seal.
Max works was talking about using a double lip seal??? Any ideas on this Marc??

thanks

Dick

Cord, you are absolutely right and the ball is rolling quite good.
That is exactly why I bought it from BAM Marine. I am sure other drive shops are good also, but I had to pick one.
The drive will be picked up by a truck today and on it's way back to Florida. GOD I wish I was going..... I was down there 3 times last winter and I don't have any planned for this winter. I better get busy. It's to long of a winter here, to stay all winter HaHa.
I guess the LEMON statement wasn't far off, but it wasn't the whole drive, just one part. It seems Merc all ready had been working on this problem. It would be nice if one of their engineers were on the board. Oh well!
Mr Gadgets, You are right on the loctite, we tried that and it didn't work either.;)
Thanks everyone for all the help.

Perhpas Marc from BAM will give a reduced price if a bunch of us buy the new seals from him. What do you say Marc? :D

Guys, the list price is $58.05, we sell it for $52.35. It is listed as a seal & retainer kit, I have not seen one yet, but the part number for the seal itself is still 26-807006. I am assuming that there is a lip to retain the seal.

It's a small price to pay compared to all the hassles that it creates.
Thanks Marc for all the help!

I LOVE THIS COUNTRY:D :D

The new retainers have arrived, sure enough they have a lip to retain the seal.

In talking to Mercury Racing we figured it would also be a good idea to mount an additional resevoir bottle and T it into the oil line. If mounted higher it would provide more expansion room and minimize the pressure build up.

So, is Mercury Racing saying that pressure is what is pushing the seal out? I wonder how much pressure the bottle and cap can handle right now. I wouldn't think very much, but you never know with out testing it.
Mr Gadgets, I don't know how the seal is made, but I think it is one of kind made exclusively for Merc. and not available any where else. Marc probably knows the answer.

Thanks for the info Marc!!!!!!!!!!

Mark,
Will that retainer, PN# 841026A2, fit a standard Bravo case? Or is it just for the XR Bravo case? I know the diameter of the two are different. I have the Standard case upgraded to the XR gears.

Thanks,

Dick

If you can't use the new retainer you might want to use Loctite 620 instead of 680. 620 is for higher temperature applications up to 450 degrees. 680 starts to loosen up at about 250 degrees. I know that a lot of Bravo's out there are seeing oil temps in that range. Not sure what temps the seal and retainer see, but I would use the higher temp stuff.

Falcon,
Thanks for the info, but I want to solve this problem first time out. If I cant machine the stock retainer to fit, I will buy the one from Max Machine Worx. It is expensive, but will solve the problem. That lip goes a long way over the loctite..

Thanks

Dick

Dick, it will only fit the XR. Bigger thread and OD on the carrier.

Rockie,
Your drive is shipping back today. I am really glad you keep an eye on the oil, this would have been a lot worse otherwise.

GREAT INFO and reading.
So questions are........
the $388 (reimbursed?)
And did the drive get cleaned up cosmetically after so much shipping, owner was unhappy with appearance?

I have had great luck with BAM on routine parts, I will use them many times in the future for sure, but after spending 30 minutes to read this post I just thought I would ask those 2 questions.
Thanks
Bryan