Procharger Set Up
 

I have just finshed installation of a M-3 Procharger system(5lbs.) on my 1997 250 Eliminator Eagle and am not fortunate enough to have a good source for information. I have run the boat several times but only to 4000 r.p.m. as I want to be sure that the fuel system is set up correctly. I have heard some controversy about the fuel set up. 3 Questions.
1. How many are running the PC set up
without problems?(i.e. 3/8" fuel line tank
to water seperator to pump. Aeromotive
rec. 1/2" My tank has only a 3/8" fitting
with some kind of plastic tube going to the
bottom of the tank. At the bottom of the
tube there is something attached as I can't
pull it all the way out. How could I modify
this to 1/2"? Do I need to?

2. Should I retard the timing or leave it 32.

3. Any other helpful hints?

Project sounds great! Im doing the same thing on a 95' 250 eagle 502 carb motor. I'm running 29 deg. of timing. I'm going to try 32 degrees with race gas later. I ran 3/8 " id on the last boat but I havent set up the eliminator yet fuel system yet. Which motor are you running? How much boost in the intake manifold are you running? Do you have std drive height? I'm expecting 95-97 mph on mine. Tell me more! Greg

HP Junkie,
I should have mentioned that the motor is a 502 mag. E.F.I, I am going to use the standard drive height, 30 pitch bravo 1, I am going to use 5 lbs. boost. so far initial runs have gone great, at 3750 I run 70 m.p.h on 2 different gaffrigs. The next couple of weekends I plan to try W.O.T. and check the plugs for proper combustion. The 30p hooks up perfect and feels great. Did you have any problems with the 3/8" fuel line?

I run an M3 on my MPI Small Block 434ci. My engine dyno'd 738hp. She ran fine with 3/8" pick up in tank and water seperator before the Aeromotive fuel pump. I run 60psi.
However; Aeromotive says you need to run -10 fuel line (1/2") or larger, the fuel pick up in tank needs to be 1/2" or larger and do not use water seperator before the pump. If any or all of these items are not followed the pump my fail premature. The pump can not have any type of restriction from the tank to the pump only a 100 micron filter which they make.
My pump started to make more noise then normal half way through the season. So I install 1/2" fuel pick up, changed to all -10 (1/2") fuel lines and moved the water seperator to the return line. I removed my fuel sending unit and bolted in a plate with a 1/2" fuel pick up for the rest of the season. This winter I will flush out the fuel tank and install another sending unit.
Your engine should run fine at 32 degrees. Just make sure the engine temp never gets hot and that you have good fuel!!

geoo, did your pump stop making excessive noise after you made the fuel line changes?

I didn't want to take a chance of having a failure so I changed the pump and will send the old one back to get tested and rebuilt if needed.

:) ome more Procharger guys on board!!!

I highly recommend you review the thread "it's for certain...meltdown" and review all the Aeromotive info. Pay particular attention to the fuel returns and where you run them. Be absolutely sure the regulator is mounted on TOP the engine or it will die!! Work to keep the fuel as cool as possible if you return it the the pump inlet to prevent pump cavitation. That is what the 1/2" lines are all about, preventing cavitation due to low inlet flow heating the fuel and injecting air thru the pump & too the injectors.
Also, do not necessarily believe anything you are told by the P.C. techs. They pass out so much bad/inaccurate info that it's not funny.
Timing- stock timing is ok @ 5# boost.....been doing it for a long time. Be sure to check it in BASE TIMING MODE on a scan tool.

Scan Tools- available on the net or ebay at around $300.00 (same as Merc's Scan Tool & by the same manufacturer.

Fuel pressure - start at a minimum of 37# pressure for EFI.

Again, call Aeromotive even for P.C. related fuel problems, they understand the situation!!:cool:

Best of luck to you guys!!:)

Thanks for all the information guys, brings one question to mind. If I did have too much restriction with the fuel lines would I see a drop in fuel pressure or maybe hear predetonation before "meltdown?" I have mounted gaffrig fuel pressure guage on the dash. By the way I have now an aeromotive fuel filter for install after the pump and a high volume fuel/water seperator from eddie marine that has 1/2" fittings. I am going to return the fuel to the tank by using a galvanized pipe with a fitting installed into the fuel fill hose.

Does anyone have specific ideas on how to add 1/2" fuel fitting to my plastic tank? Should I just try the 3/8" fitting expanded to 1/2" tubing right out of the tank? I am not going to be making 700+ horsepower as was just mentioned.

Hey, look like a great project coming home...

I am running an M-1 with a 454 carb set-up. I started like yourself with the 3/8" lines through the stock filter. The pump was routed through a fuel cooler than back through the pump originally. 1 season later, I cavitated the magnets loose - no more pump. The second round, I took their advice - re-routed all the lines to 1/2", but have not pulled the tanks to replace the 3/8" feed. Maybe for the winter project. My thought was to tee both lines into 1 - 1/2" line directed to the pump. This worked for this season, so far....
Math says that 2 - 3/8" = 6/8" or almost 3/4" of fuel. Problem was that you can't find a cheap 1/2" tank switch..... So, the tanks drain differently causing an inbalance between tanks. The only fix was to pull the tank to have a new fitting welding into the tanks.


More problems....

Hope this helps....

Another thing to remember is to remove the anti-siphon valve from the tank pickup on top. This is not a Coast Guard approved procedure but it is necessary to improve flow.
I too have thought of just joining the two 3/8 lines, one from each tank, but I would lose the "tank switch" control. I don't know quite how they would equally feed either. Maybe someone make an equalizing manifold block????
The two 3/8 lines would be the equivalent to appx a 9/16 fuel line (the two 3/8 lines having a cross sectional area of .22 in^2 vs. .196 in^2 for the single 1/2) Not nearly 3/4 but still should be more than sufficient.
After some in depth conversation with a major fuel tank manufacture, it seems the 3/8 should easily support the hp requirements I'm looking for (750) especially when I'm returning cold unused fuel to the large reservoir and not the tank. They did mention no 90's or any other obstructions, use 1/2 from the reservoir/separator to high pressure pump and from pump to fuel rail and make sure that my high volume mechanical feed pump is sufficient to keep up.
Adding 1/2" pickups to my tanks would be a major undertaking so I will be using these alternative methods for sure.
Watch the gauge:eek:
Dave

I've not had any pump or pressure problems in two seasons with 7/16' pickup or 3/8 id lines and separator on the suction side. I'd like to go to 1/2 stuff on the new boat. How do you catch the filings when you drill out the tank? Or dont you? Greg

Has anyone actually had a problem directly related to the 3/8 fuel lines and what type of hp was being generated?
Just curious?
:(

At 650 HP I havn't had any problems With the 3/8" from the tank. I did however remove the anti syphon valve on top of the tank.
I'm running the same 502 Mag MPI engine, but with bigger injectors(50lbs) 2 bar map sensor, re programed ECU, at 38 psi fuel pressure at idle. Sending my pump in over the winter to have tested and maybe rebuilt after reading about some problems with the magnets.

:D DITTO....kanookster. I think the biggest problem with the smaller 3/8 feed is the pump cavitation problem described earlier. 3/8 will supply enough fuel for a 650 hp (most of us are close to that range) but the PUMP has the capacity to flow way more fuel than we use and may create the cavitation problem. I, after spending a LOT of time talking to Brett at Aeromotive, am increasing the size of my lines to the filters and the pump just as a preventive measure if nothing else. AND my second pump is going back to Aeromotive for it's alcohol/additive resistnat rebuild this fall.:cool: Sometimes, ya' just gotta have faith!!:D

While we are on the subject...............
 

What enrichens/corrects the fuel mixture on an EFI set up after a centrifugal blower is installed?

What is done with the MAP sensor?


I've been told that blown is good:D :D :D

With the exception of replacing the injectors, the fuel pressure must be raised accordingly( mine is at base 45# stock injectors). The ECM must still be reprogrammed by Arizona Speed for it to be close to right. What regulator did P.C. send you? Large red one or small Blue one?

Sounds like everyone has the same questions. I have a 26 Daytona with a 510ci. motor built by Performance Research and am installing my procharger this winter. Fuel is the key I'm told. Jerry May @ Eliminator told me to run #10 fuel lines from each tank to the pump & #10 return lines back to the tanks but they have to be equal length to ensure equal fuel return. My charger is a M-4 and I plan to run 5 lbs. of boost on pump gas. My comp. is 9.3 to 1 and I'm carbed with a 1000 cfm demon. Does anyone have a similar set up for any jetting info. I bought the charger from Mach Performance in Mi. and they have a hp500 carbed set up in a 25 daytona they are running 155 alcohol jets in the secondaries with a M-4. Sounds like alot of jet to me. I am pulling the motor in two weeks to set this up, then its going to the dyno shop for set-up, then back in the boat. Anybody know what the fittings int he tanks of a daytona are? I know I have 3/8 lines know to a valve then to the carb.

Any suggestions or answers????
This CAT will walk the DOG!!

Nothing is done to the map sensor shah mat, The stock one is only a 1 bar sensor, That means it only reads Vacuum. The 2 bar sensor reads both vacuum and boost. The ecu is reprogramed to use the 2 bar sensor. A different fuel curve and spark curve is also reprogramed into the ecu, and this uses the 2 bar map sensor to tell the ecu what to do;) The fuel pressure is regulated by the Manifold atmostphere. A small line from the intake manifold is routed to the vent line on the fuel regulator, when boost is present in the regulator it creates pressure in the regulator thus increasing fuel pressure accordinly. same goes if it's a vacuum, the pressure drops. It will run ok with the stock map sensor and ecu, but for better reliability your better off running a 2bar map, reprogram ecu, and bigger injectors. Arizona Speed and marine has a great program and kit for the 502 MPI.
It comes with the 2 bar map, reprogram, 50 lbs injectors, compleat for around $1000.oo I noticed a big differance after running mine procharged stock, and after Arizona speed kit.
No black transom, better acceleration, 200 more RPM, and the bigest thing was around 150° less EGT temps!!!

"Dear Walkin' "
I would send that carb to Dean Nickerson Performance (215-781-1370 Bristol, Pa. ) to be flowed and metered. I sent mine to him and it came back perfect. All I did after receipt was to adjust the idle up 100 rpm. No more flooding, fouled plug or black transom. Never a backfire either. Total re-machining of the carb and metering plates and air bleeds. He worked with P.C. in developement. Call him, speak to him and no one else.
On the carb version the regulator can be mounted remotely (off the engine) as opposed to the EFI version. The carb should be "squared", the same jets in all four corners. Each barrel should also flow the same amount of air. Dean fixes that. Also, Aeromotive tech Brett says AN-8 for return is sufficient, but I guess AN-10 won't hurt, just costs more!!. Send your pump to Brett to check. If it is still in warranty he will update it to use with todays fuels for free. If it is not updated (manufactured after April of 2002, it is not updated!! Get it re-built, it is a must do....
Absolutely install a 100 micron filter AFTER the pump. Aeromotive will suck thru a water seperator on the inlet side, no problem (again per Aeromotive). It will also PUSH thru it if needed. The return on twins can be merged into a wye to go into the tank.

Actually, (talk to Dean Nickerson first) the 1000 cfm Demon sounds large for your displacement and boost. Per Nickerson, a Holley 750 flows more air than an 850, so what are your repercussions??? Ask Dean. He will be right. Every carb is run in his shop before it leaves! A 750 is sold with every M1 charger so I don't know what PC supplies with an M4. It seems every PC dealer puts some of his own stuff in the kit. Good luck.:)

Hey Kanook,
what were your EGTS?
Thanks,
Dave

Walkin- I have a 26 daytona with stage 4 procharger w/ twin 450cfm carbs on a 540BBC I will go along with what BF has said about getting with Dean. JSpeeddemon & I both have the same carb setup & we both have them jetted different.

As for fuel My boat has 1/2" hose going to a right/left/both fuel switch. I have increased the length of hose on the short side but they still do not draw the same. At least with the switch I can shut the side that runs out of fuel first & work just on the other one.

One other problem is if you do not have a hood scoop you might not be getting enought air to your engine compartment. I do not know how eliminator did yours but only way for my motor to get air was thru the 3 vents on the very back. I still do not know what I am going to do with that problem, just don't want a scoop.

Thanks Kanook, very nice explaination.

NordicHeat,
EGT's stands for exhaust gas temperature.

Sensors are placed in the exhaust stream the give readouts of the temp. General rule....High temp means lean (very bad).... Low temp means rich (not as bad, but still bad)

:p Shah Mat, His question was "What were your EGT's". I think he ment what temps they were;) ;)
They don't get above 1225º-1250º with the reprogram, Before I seen close to 1350º.

Here's a story for you though..... I wanted to see what they were in the stock 502 merc setup. So I installed the EGT gauge before I even did any mods to the engine. Just to see what mercruiser had for temps, and to have a before mods. comparisom. I was surprized to see that at WOT I was around 1400º:eek: I was glad I did that first. I wasn't so shocked to see that after the procharger install it was around 1350º. If I wouldn't of checked the EGT's before. I would of thought it was to much.... It was to much, but less than stock????just wierd thats all...:cool:

I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT PRO CHARGERS BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT DEAN NICKERSON IS THE PERSON TO TALK TO . HE HAS DONE A LOT OF WORK FOR ME; BUILT MY 2 980CFMS AND BUILT MY BLOWER MOTOR. I HAVE NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH IT. ANY QUESTIONS DEAN OR HIS SON BRAD HAVE BEEN MORE THAN HELPFUL.
TOM

Sorry Kanookstr,
I'll shut up now.
:)

My EGT's at the port with Nickersons carb setup and 7# in the manifold were 1350 and 1400 on the 2 hottest cylinders #2 #7. Plugs looked good and no black transom. Greg

:p

I got to make the changes in my fuel delivery system and give it a try this weekend. This is what I did thanks to everyone and Brett at Aeromotive.... Tank 3/8" fitting expanded at fitting to 1/2" line....900 g.p.h. fuel filter/water seperator with 1/2" fittings...fuel pump.... Aeromotive 12304 inline filter....Regulator(red mounted on motor....fuel rail....return line to fuel cooler....return to tank.


The big question? How did it run? The motor ran very well fuel pressure at idle=37l.b.s., the fuel pump seemed to be much quieter with this set up, I think the pump might have been cavitating before! HP Junkie and anyone else....The motor would only crank out to 4500 r.p.m. at 82 m.p.h. with the 30p. Bravo I propeller. Before I ran a Bronson Hill labbed 26p. Bravo I at 74 m.p.h. 4850 r.p.m. Do you think that the 502 M-3 procharged 5lbs. should turn the 30 to 5000 grand? I did but it wasn't there.

Why even bother with the fuel cooler when you are returning the fuel to the tank. I'm sure it makes so little diference in the fuel temp and it adds one more thing to the system to break. Remember KISS.

FIRST !!! Raise that base fuel pressure to 40-45#(again per smarter people than me!. That engine is probably starving for fuel at WOT. Under full boost your pressure should rise to about 55-60#. Be sure you hooked up the boost refernce line to the corrrect place on the regulator (on TOP not the side/brass nipple) & the tap in the front of the plenum. This is top priority.
With new plugs installed, no go make a full speed pass, pull the throttles back and turn the engine off asap. This will preserve what the plug is seeing at WOT. The plug threads should be black & sooty and slight coloring of the porcelain. The ground tip should be be black also. If it is blue, you are too lean. If it is too sooty and wet, you can lower the pressure a little. Better to start rich than lean.
Lab the new Bravo 30" and you will pick up that another 2-300 rpm. You really do not want to run bumping the rev limiter continuosly..... not a good thing, it works by shutting the fuel off which leans the engine. as I said, not a good thing!

Thanks for the help Blown Formula.... I have heeded your advice. My boost reference line goes into the port right above the thermostat. I do have my boost guage line T'ed into this port as well...this should not present a problem though should it? Just a question about fuel pressure? My motor is a 96 which calls for 32-34 l.b.s. at idle, why would it be necessary to run baseline 40 l.b.s.? My fuel pressure guage at w.O.T reported right at 60 l.b.s. at didn't really even get to notice the exact boost I was getting(was really concentrating on not hitting a pontoon or a sea doo!)
What is everyones experience about how hard I can run this set up without really cutting back on longevity of the motor. Can I run 4000 on a poker run without hurting things?
I checked plugs which had been installed in the spring. I only got to check two because of time reasons. Yes the impatient wife! The two plugs looked just like they should. I will be more thorough next time! Thanks again for the response as I am on an Island here in Corvette City!

#1... if your total pressure is at 60#, you are probably ok. I must ask if that is on a mechanical gauge at the engine or an electrical gauge on dash? Put a mechanical on the engine! non-dampened needle.
#2 ...I would not "T" the boost gauge into the same point as the regulator. There is a dual purpose of the boost line, 1st is for boost & second is to bleed fuel back to the engine intake in case of a diaphragm rupture in the regulator.
#3....My base line of 40# was arrived at because that was the lowest pressure my engine will idle with. Also, Merc said (in a manual somewhere) minimum pressure was 37# at idle. Based on that, I have only an additional 3# of pressure......I'd rather be rich than melted!
#4.... Blown engines are fun, for short periods. Dean Nickerson advised me to limit wot runs to short periods...ex-"if you haven't beat him in a mile, you won't in two miles either!!". Limit wot runs to reasonable short runs. 4000 rpm is not max, but I would not run always at 4000 for a cruise speed.
#5... you cannot get a true reading of plugs using old plugs, they must be new.

Best of luck !! :)

KY......,
No pun intended, your boat with a stock 502 in 95' went 78 in a hot boat or powerboat test. So somethings up with what you have. Id check the fuel pressure suggestions the other guys are talking about and read the plugs. Eventually I plan to use the efi setup your running with 15 Lbs of boost with 70# injectors and a stand alone computer with a huge intercooler. I'll need an M-4 procharger so if you hear of anyone selling one of those let me know. My boat ran 90 with 7lbs in the manifold (below the carb) with a round keel bottom keel. I cant wait to try it wit the pad bottom. I was turning a bravo 1 28" at about 5800 rpm. You may think that is high but at 3000 I was going 45 MPH. I am happy with that. The guy that owned the boat before I did ran 93 with a 598" N/A chev 1.36 gear and a 28" bravo prop at 6000 rpm. He then put on a 27 Mirage and went 97 Mph! That was back to back. You can see I am really excited about this program. At 82 MPH was your boat empty, full of gas or what? Keep us posted on your progress. Greg

Hey Greg, how's it going?

What did you end up using on the carb, a box or a hat?