What’s out there for water jacketed turbos preferably with an alum housing
10-23-2020, 08:17 AM
#1
What’s out there for water jacketed turbos preferably with an alum housing
Wondering what’s out there for small water jacketed alum turbos.
I just read the the 1.5L mini is now running an all alum water jacketed turbo on their 1.5L 3 cylinder. but haven’t been able to find a photo or listing for it yet.
A pair of them might be the right size for me to make 5-8 lbs of boost on a 5.3LS engine
thanks in advance for any info, RM
I just read the the 1.5L mini is now running an all alum water jacketed turbo on their 1.5L 3 cylinder. but haven’t been able to find a photo or listing for it yet.
A pair of them might be the right size for me to make 5-8 lbs of boost on a 5.3LS engine
thanks in advance for any info, RM
10-23-2020, 08:28 AM
#2
Registered
Those turbos are going to choke a 5.3. Turbos have to be sized for intended engine and desired out come, especially for a boat engine. Both compressor and exhaust wheels need to be thought out as well as exhaust ar housing size.
Sorry I can't help any more.
Sorry I can't help any more.
Last edited by underpsi68; 10-23-2020 at 08:42 AM.
10-23-2020, 09:15 AM
#3
I was thinking that if those turbos make 10lbs of boost on a 1.5L. A pair should be able to make 5-7 lbs on a 5.3. I will talk with some turbo specialists. I’m just trying to see what’s out there in a water jacketed turbos at this point.
10-27-2020, 11:41 PM
#4
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Besides - a turbo that happily delivers 7psi to a stock 325hp 5.3 at 4600rpm will be WAY too small to feed a 6600rpm hot-cammed big ported 5.3 screamer.
The Mini Cooper S R56 1.5L turbo makes 11 psi of boost and 134hp.
650hp should take 5 of them.
There's a lot of info out there on turbo sizing. Each turbocharger (actually each END of each turbo) has an accompanying p/v chart and thermal efficiency chart. Spend a little time learning what all the data means and you can narrow down your search.
Also be aware that auto turbo sizing usually leans towards smaller/quicker to spool units for driveability. If you don't mind waiting for spool, a boat application allows you to size it dead center in the sweet spot.
M
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LakeHuronPower (10-28-2020)
10-28-2020, 08:20 AM
#5
Don't look at engine displacement for your comparison. The turbo doesn't know what size the motor is. All it knows is how much air can it push against a given boost load. It's better to compare HP.
Besides - a turbo that happily delivers 7psi to a stock 325hp 5.3 at 4600rpm will be WAY too small to feed a 6600rpm hot-cammed big ported 5.3 screamer.
The Mini Cooper S R56 1.5L turbo makes 11 psi of boost and 134hp.
650hp should take 5 of them.
There's a lot of info out there on turbo sizing. Each turbocharger (actually each END of each turbo) has an accompanying p/v chart and thermal efficiency chart. Spend a little time learning what all the data means and you can narrow down your search.
Also be aware that auto turbo sizing usually leans towards smaller/quicker to spool units for driveability. If you don't mind waiting for spool, a boat application allows you to size it dead center in the sweet spot.
M
Besides - a turbo that happily delivers 7psi to a stock 325hp 5.3 at 4600rpm will be WAY too small to feed a 6600rpm hot-cammed big ported 5.3 screamer.
The Mini Cooper S R56 1.5L turbo makes 11 psi of boost and 134hp.
650hp should take 5 of them.
There's a lot of info out there on turbo sizing. Each turbocharger (actually each END of each turbo) has an accompanying p/v chart and thermal efficiency chart. Spend a little time learning what all the data means and you can narrow down your search.
Also be aware that auto turbo sizing usually leans towards smaller/quicker to spool units for driveability. If you don't mind waiting for spool, a boat application allows you to size it dead center in the sweet spot.
M
let me ask you this, does the engine care if a single or twin turbos are feeding it air?
what if I use a single turbo like the the ones mercury uses in the 1350/1650 engines.
half of 1350 is right about where I want to be hp wise and I think it would be easier to plumb everything with a single turbo, thanks for the info, RM
10-28-2020, 11:55 PM
#6
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
The engine doesn't care how many turbos you have, but inertia and thermodynamics both factor in.
The less "delta T" (exhaust temperature drop) from the head to the exhaust turbine of the turbo, the more exhaust energy the turbo can extract. In a marine environment with water jacketed exhaust manifolds and turbo housings, you don't want to add ANY unnecessary length between the head and the turbo. On a V8, 2 turbos shortens that distance on each side vs a single turbo with all 8 exhaust ports plumbed to it. That's the thermodynamic reason for 2 turbos. The inertial reason is because a smaller turbo has less inertia and will spool quicker than a larger turbine. It's a huge bunch of trade-offs.
Recent Audi turbocharged engines run reverse flow heads. The exhaust ports are "in the vee" with very short distance from ports to turbine, as well as packaging the turbos in the "vee" area of the motor.
On the other end of that scale are the rear-mounted turbo setups for the Camaro/Firebirds of the mid 2000s. Underhood packaging issues made traditional turbo system real expensive for those cars. But you could but a well-engineered system that mounted the turbos behind the rear axle. Definitely not optimal, but they used Asian ball bearing turbos and kept the lag minimal. You weren't going to make 600hp with those setups, but for the money they were surprisingly effective. So, by taking into account those 2 different ends of the distance/lag solutions you can grasp that nothing is impossible, there is just different degrees of "better".
In a boat, though, spool time is less of a drawback. It may take a bit to spool, but once it does you're in business.
Example.. I have Cat diesels in my Sea Ray. Big single turbos with aftercoolers. Everything water jacketed. If you go from idle and slam the throttles to the stops you can start counting.. 1..2..3 mississippi. 4.. 5.. 6.. right about now you've come up from 500rpm to 1,200rpm. Here comes the coal. Rolling black coal. It has underwater exhaust pods about 14" below the bottom of the hull, so you don't have black cloud of death clinging to the transom of the boat, but it is boiling menacingly out of the first curl of the wake like there is a superstock diesel tractor pull happening on the lake bottom. 7.. 8.. the first hint of whistle and the bow of the boat starts rising along with the whine. 9.. 10.. WHAM. 2,000 RPM and purses fall off sofas onto the floor, loose soda cans tip over, women shriek. Boat hops up on full plane, nose levels out, and the last 100 rpm (to 2,100) come once the hull catches up with the props. In an automotive world, the turbo lag would be unbearable. But in a cruiser loaded with people? I love it.
A single turbo 350 ci V8 gas motor would have more lag than a twin turbo, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as laggy as my Cats are.
So you may be willing to live with some turbo lag for your setup.
The less "delta T" (exhaust temperature drop) from the head to the exhaust turbine of the turbo, the more exhaust energy the turbo can extract. In a marine environment with water jacketed exhaust manifolds and turbo housings, you don't want to add ANY unnecessary length between the head and the turbo. On a V8, 2 turbos shortens that distance on each side vs a single turbo with all 8 exhaust ports plumbed to it. That's the thermodynamic reason for 2 turbos. The inertial reason is because a smaller turbo has less inertia and will spool quicker than a larger turbine. It's a huge bunch of trade-offs.
Recent Audi turbocharged engines run reverse flow heads. The exhaust ports are "in the vee" with very short distance from ports to turbine, as well as packaging the turbos in the "vee" area of the motor.
On the other end of that scale are the rear-mounted turbo setups for the Camaro/Firebirds of the mid 2000s. Underhood packaging issues made traditional turbo system real expensive for those cars. But you could but a well-engineered system that mounted the turbos behind the rear axle. Definitely not optimal, but they used Asian ball bearing turbos and kept the lag minimal. You weren't going to make 600hp with those setups, but for the money they were surprisingly effective. So, by taking into account those 2 different ends of the distance/lag solutions you can grasp that nothing is impossible, there is just different degrees of "better".
In a boat, though, spool time is less of a drawback. It may take a bit to spool, but once it does you're in business.
Example.. I have Cat diesels in my Sea Ray. Big single turbos with aftercoolers. Everything water jacketed. If you go from idle and slam the throttles to the stops you can start counting.. 1..2..3 mississippi. 4.. 5.. 6.. right about now you've come up from 500rpm to 1,200rpm. Here comes the coal. Rolling black coal. It has underwater exhaust pods about 14" below the bottom of the hull, so you don't have black cloud of death clinging to the transom of the boat, but it is boiling menacingly out of the first curl of the wake like there is a superstock diesel tractor pull happening on the lake bottom. 7.. 8.. the first hint of whistle and the bow of the boat starts rising along with the whine. 9.. 10.. WHAM. 2,000 RPM and purses fall off sofas onto the floor, loose soda cans tip over, women shriek. Boat hops up on full plane, nose levels out, and the last 100 rpm (to 2,100) come once the hull catches up with the props. In an automotive world, the turbo lag would be unbearable. But in a cruiser loaded with people? I love it.
A single turbo 350 ci V8 gas motor would have more lag than a twin turbo, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as laggy as my Cats are.
So you may be willing to live with some turbo lag for your setup.
10-29-2020, 12:21 AM
#7
The engine doesn't care how many turbos you have, but inertia and thermodynamics both factor in.
The less "delta T" (exhaust temperature drop) from the head to the exhaust turbine of the turbo, the more exhaust energy the turbo can extract. In a marine environment with water jacketed exhaust manifolds and turbo housings, you don't want to add ANY unnecessary length between the head and the turbo. On a V8, 2 turbos shortens that distance on each side vs a single turbo with all 8 exhaust ports plumbed to it. That's the thermodynamic reason for 2 turbos. The inertial reason is because a smaller turbo has less inertia and will spool quicker than a larger turbine. It's a huge bunch of trade-offs.
Recent Audi turbocharged engines run reverse flow heads. The exhaust ports are "in the vee" with very short distance from ports to turbine, as well as packaging the turbos in the "vee" area of the motor.
On the other end of that scale are the rear-mounted turbo setups for the Camaro/Firebirds of the mid 2000s. Underhood packaging issues made traditional turbo system real expensive for those cars. But you could but a well-engineered system that mounted the turbos behind the rear axle. Definitely not optimal, but they used Asian ball bearing turbos and kept the lag minimal. You weren't going to make 600hp with those setups, but for the money they were surprisingly effective. So, by taking into account those 2 different ends of the distance/lag solutions you can grasp that nothing is impossible, there is just different degrees of "better".
In a boat, though, spool time is less of a drawback. It may take a bit to spool, but once it does you're in business.
Example.. I have Cat diesels in my Sea Ray. Big single turbos with aftercoolers. Everything water jacketed. If you go from idle and slam the throttles to the stops you can start counting.. 1..2..3 mississippi. 4.. 5.. 6.. right about now you've come up from 500rpm to 1,200rpm. Here comes the coal. Rolling black coal. It has underwater exhaust pods about 14" below the bottom of the hull, so you don't have black cloud of death clinging to the transom of the boat, but it is boiling menacingly out of the first curl of the wake like there is a superstock diesel tractor pull happening on the lake bottom. 7.. 8.. the first hint of whistle and the bow of the boat starts rising along with the whine. 9.. 10.. WHAM. 2,000 RPM and purses fall off sofas onto the floor, loose soda cans tip over, women shriek. Boat hops up on full plane, nose levels out, and the last 100 rpm (to 2,100) come once the hull catches up with the props. In an automotive world, the turbo lag would be unbearable. But in a cruiser loaded with people? I love it.
A single turbo 350 ci V8 gas motor would have more lag than a twin turbo, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as laggy as my Cats are.
So you may be willing to live with some turbo lag for your setup.
The less "delta T" (exhaust temperature drop) from the head to the exhaust turbine of the turbo, the more exhaust energy the turbo can extract. In a marine environment with water jacketed exhaust manifolds and turbo housings, you don't want to add ANY unnecessary length between the head and the turbo. On a V8, 2 turbos shortens that distance on each side vs a single turbo with all 8 exhaust ports plumbed to it. That's the thermodynamic reason for 2 turbos. The inertial reason is because a smaller turbo has less inertia and will spool quicker than a larger turbine. It's a huge bunch of trade-offs.
Recent Audi turbocharged engines run reverse flow heads. The exhaust ports are "in the vee" with very short distance from ports to turbine, as well as packaging the turbos in the "vee" area of the motor.
On the other end of that scale are the rear-mounted turbo setups for the Camaro/Firebirds of the mid 2000s. Underhood packaging issues made traditional turbo system real expensive for those cars. But you could but a well-engineered system that mounted the turbos behind the rear axle. Definitely not optimal, but they used Asian ball bearing turbos and kept the lag minimal. You weren't going to make 600hp with those setups, but for the money they were surprisingly effective. So, by taking into account those 2 different ends of the distance/lag solutions you can grasp that nothing is impossible, there is just different degrees of "better".
In a boat, though, spool time is less of a drawback. It may take a bit to spool, but once it does you're in business.
Example.. I have Cat diesels in my Sea Ray. Big single turbos with aftercoolers. Everything water jacketed. If you go from idle and slam the throttles to the stops you can start counting.. 1..2..3 mississippi. 4.. 5.. 6.. right about now you've come up from 500rpm to 1,200rpm. Here comes the coal. Rolling black coal. It has underwater exhaust pods about 14" below the bottom of the hull, so you don't have black cloud of death clinging to the transom of the boat, but it is boiling menacingly out of the first curl of the wake like there is a superstock diesel tractor pull happening on the lake bottom. 7.. 8.. the first hint of whistle and the bow of the boat starts rising along with the whine. 9.. 10.. WHAM. 2,000 RPM and purses fall off sofas onto the floor, loose soda cans tip over, women shriek. Boat hops up on full plane, nose levels out, and the last 100 rpm (to 2,100) come once the hull catches up with the props. In an automotive world, the turbo lag would be unbearable. But in a cruiser loaded with people? I love it.
A single turbo 350 ci V8 gas motor would have more lag than a twin turbo, but it wouldn't be anywhere near as laggy as my Cats are.
So you may be willing to live with some turbo lag for your setup.
i want to fabricate a mount for the turbos that would bolt to an exhast manifold where the elbow would bolt on. Just angle the turbos inward over top of the valve covers so I can run twin engines in a side by side set up. Then a two into one pipe to the inter cooler then into the throttle body of the oem intake.
if I can’t find the correct size Turbos for a twin applicatio,
if I can’t find the right turbo for twins I will look at doing a single set up. I could still keep the distance to the turbo at a minimum and triple wall the tubing from the ex manifold to the turbo inlet so the water will only cool the outer layer and keep exhaust gas temps as high as possible.
Is there a difference between turbos for diesels and gasoline engines ? There might be a better selection of water jacketed turbos for a small diesel if the turbos will work for my application.
thanks for the food for thought.
10-29-2020, 10:54 PM
#8
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Modern OEM turbos are optimized for the engine application and target power goals.
Turbine impeller and housing sizes are a bit different on a diesel. For example, my Cats have EGT's in the 750 degree ballpark at 2200 rpm at 22 psi of boost. Gas motors will have EGT's around 1,050 degrees or so up to 1,400+. Aluminum melts at 1,221 degrees by the way.
But in many cases, you can mix and match housings and impellers. In your case, the main concern is the size of the exhaust portion, since it is where the water jacketing is. Then you can swap on a different intake housing if you need to.
But your concern is that the exhaust side should not be a restriction for your motor. This means it should err to the large side of the range, else EGT'S rise, exhaust backpressure rises, and performance is limited.
Turbine impeller and housing sizes are a bit different on a diesel. For example, my Cats have EGT's in the 750 degree ballpark at 2200 rpm at 22 psi of boost. Gas motors will have EGT's around 1,050 degrees or so up to 1,400+. Aluminum melts at 1,221 degrees by the way.
But in many cases, you can mix and match housings and impellers. In your case, the main concern is the size of the exhaust portion, since it is where the water jacketing is. Then you can swap on a different intake housing if you need to.
But your concern is that the exhaust side should not be a restriction for your motor. This means it should err to the large side of the range, else EGT'S rise, exhaust backpressure rises, and performance is limited.
10-30-2020, 04:33 PM
#9
Registered
iTrader: (4)
I believe Rayjay was the turbo they were going to use on the 525 engines. I believe someone else is using them also.
https://www.boats.com/reviews/turbo-...t-boat-engine/
https://www.boats.com/reviews/turbo-...t-boat-engine/
10-30-2020, 04:44 PM
#10
Registered
I would talk to John at Huron Speed Turbo. Him and I had spoken a few times about making a twin turbo big block boat build, I didn't end up going this route but he still had great options. He was going to set me up with a set of Comp Tubros I believe they were 62/65's, completely water jacked, billet turbo wheels, and all. I would give John a call if you are in the market for this kind of stuff. He is a great guy and will get you really good pricing compared to pretty much anywhere else.
Here are the turbos
Here are the turbos
